DOMINIC SYMINGTON

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Symington Family
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Re: DOMINIC SYMINGTON

Post by Symington Family »

Hello Rune,
great to see you at Malvedos and also at that amazing 1994 tasting, quite an event.
We clearly see a rise in demand for old tawny's although the LBV & Reserve Ruby category continues to be extremly strong and is, in overall terms, significatly larger in terms of world sales.
To state the obvious, any significant growth on sales of old tawny's will have to be very carefully managed. Even if (for example) sales of 20 year tawny increase this will have to be carefully managed to the available stock - even though these wines are blends - they are still wines with an average of 20, which therefore take approximately 20 years to age.
As you rightly indicate, stock management will be critical.

Douro DOC; we are sure that the Douro wine category will continue to grow and will become an increasingly important part of our business. We, under no circumstances see it as replacing or surplanting our Port business but we do believe that it will continue to grow and become important, not only to us but to the Douro region in parallel to Port.
Symington Family
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Re: DOMINIC SYMINGTON

Post by Symington Family »

Hello Moses,
No, I don't think you'll see an aged White Port from us. There are some amazing wines out there and I was given a delicious example by one of my friends just last week but we won't be realeasing any.
Altano White in the US. For the time being we don't have sufficent production to enter the market although it is in our plans for the future.
Large Format bottles from non generally declared years. As you will have seen from the replies, we have done so periodically.
Relative price difference between 1963 and 1970 Vintage Port. I'm not sure I'm really in aposition to answer this question, raraity, availibilty, demand, provenance of the bottles at a particular auctionall have an influence. Both wines are absolutely spectaular at the moment.

Hi Dirk
which 1970? Now this is a really difficult question ... Graham, Dow or Warre? Frankly all 3 are excellent - as are most 1970's. The Graham, beautifully rich, Dow a little more reserved and perhaps less evolved. Warre wonderfully elegant and floral. To chose one ..? They are all 3 excellent and will also all three last for years.
Bradley Bogdan
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Re: DOMINIC SYMINGTON

Post by Bradley Bogdan »

Thank you for your great responses so far, Dominic.

A common debate that comes up is how best to give our not-yet-port-loving friends the best introduction to Port. In 3-4 bottles and a reasonable price restraint, what would you chose to open for someone you were trying to introduce to port?


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Derek T.
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Re: DOMINIC SYMINGTON

Post by Derek T. »

Dom,

If you think back to the start of your career in the Port trade, what are three most significant advancements between then and now and is there anything about your time in the trade back then that you miss?

Derek
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Eric Ifune
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Re: DOMINIC SYMINGTON

Post by Eric Ifune »

Mr. Symington,
Hello and thank you for visiting us here.
You mentioned that stocks for aged Tawnies are limited. Given the sale of Wiese & Krohn last year, is it possible to purchase aged stocks? Do you see wood aged Ports as increasing in market share?
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Re: DOMINIC SYMINGTON

Post by Julian D. A. Wiseman »

If you could do it all again, what would you do differently?
Moses Botbol
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Re: DOMINIC SYMINGTON

Post by Moses Botbol »

Dominic,

What will we be kicking ourselves in 10, 20, and 30 years from now, if we don't already have stocks of? Are there some lesser known vintage/house that haven't been widely heralded but you expect to be something special down the road?
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Jamie Garard
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Re: DOMINIC SYMINGTON

Post by Jamie Garard »

Dominic,
Thank you for your insight. I will follow up with my question poised to you back in early October. My reference for vintage port are those that are over 30 years old. While traveling with the port tour, I found myself liking the young vintage port. At your tasting most of the group seemed to like the 10-20 year old vintage ports and I did not. So can you explain again the 3 different stages that vintage port goes thru. For me your comments would be a good refresher.
Jamie Garard
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Glenn E.
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Re: DOMINIC SYMINGTON

Post by Glenn E. »

Graham's Stone Terraces and Vesuvio Capela are both relatively recent additions to what some of us refer to as the "super cuvee" category of Vintage Ports. They seem to sell very well, along with Vargellas Vinha Velha and Noval Nacional. It is a category (for lack of a better word) that interests me, both from a marketing perspective and from a wine-making perspective.

So... from the marketing perspective, do you think there is room for more Ports in this category? How do you think their presence affects the perception of regular Vintage Port which is normally marketed as the best that the house can produce?

And from the wine-making perspective, is this type of Port more challenging (or more interesting) to make? With such a limited source of grapes, how much can the wine maker do to "turn around" a merely good year and make a great super cuvee? Or is this a category where you're more inclined to simply take what nature gives you and let the resulting wine express the terroir?
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Paul Fountain
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Re: DOMINIC SYMINGTON

Post by Paul Fountain »

Dominic,
The Cockburn's house seems to be ticking along nicely under SFE Stewardship.

What sort of the changes did you need to make from operational, wine making and viticultural perspectives to the Cockburn's brand and infrastructure after your acquisition?
Would you consider other acquisitions should labels become available in the near future?

And slightly off topic... what is the future for the Gould Campbell label given that there wasn't a declaration in 2011?

regards

Paul
Symington Family
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Re: DOMINIC SYMINGTON

Post by Symington Family »

Hi Bradley
That's an excellent question - how do you introduce as yet not port loving friends to Port?
I would probably limit the introduction to 2 ports, a really good LBV/Reserve Ruby such as Graham's Six Grapes (I know there are others out there as well!!!) and a 10 Year Tawny. I probably wouldn't even tell them what it is before serving, let them discover how delicious they are first.
Serving & pairing will be critical. For the Reserve Ruby try to make sure the temperature is about 18ºC. (64/65ºF) nicely below today's (excessive) ambient temperature which now seems closer to 23º/73.5º! Serve with something like a warm chocolate soufflé and watch their reaction – if you want to be a bit mean also leave a glass of red wine on the table for them!
For the 10 year old I would serve much cooler, below 15ºC (59ºF), nicely chilled. Here I would probably just sit them on the deck (apologies to all the Europeans!) and let them enjoy it.

Lastly, make sure you only serve Port in decent glasses, at least white wine size. Even the standard ISO is too small.
Symington Family
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Re: DOMINIC SYMINGTON

Post by Symington Family »

Hello Derek,
I think the advancement in viticultural and oenological knowledge is nothing short of revolutionary. With all due respect to my fathers and previous generations, the knowledge that we have today, both in the vineyard and in the winery has been a huge help. There are lots of discussions about field blends and single varietal planting, single ferments and co-ferments etc. but in reality these discussions just prove the tremendous complexity that help to make ports better and better.
Symington Family
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Re: DOMINIC SYMINGTON

Post by Symington Family »

Hi Eric,
Stock management with such long lead times is one of the critical tasks for any port shipper. Sometimes we almost feel like we're crystal ball gazing! As you can imagine, it’s not very easy to project trends and fashions in 30 or 40 years’ time.
In the past there were various sources of aged ports.
Many farmers would keep a some pipes “for a rainy day”. These wines would be held in reasonable quantity by farmers and be periodically offered to the shippers. Most shippers knew their suppliers and knew who had what. Today this source is a bit more difficult to come by with the changes in the dynamic of the Douro region with the advent of Single Estate producers and of the global market for Douro red wine.
It must be remembered that up until 1986 a single estate was not allowed to be a shipper unless registered with the IVP (today IVDP) and based in V N Gaia/Porto. These properties were the traditional port or grape suppliers to most shippers and it was they who would “bank” some wines for later resale.
The other source was the para-state entity, Casa do Douro, a private entity with governmental powers. One of the tasks of this entity was to buy-in excess production at government subsidised rates. These ports would be aged and became a source of base-blends for the shippers. Since the early 1990’s this has generally no longer been the case and the ports that are currently held by what used to be the Casa do Douro don’t generally fulfil the trade requirements.
Therefore the onus now falls fully on the port companies to manage a long term investment and stock aging policy. This necessarily implies a huge investment on behalf of the companies and a firm belief in the long term viability of their companies.
As an example of the long term investment – Evaporation at an average of say, 2.5% annually would mean 50% loss over 35 years. Although it is not quite linear because of topping-up, variable evaporation rates and also the fact that as the wines ages it becomes denser and therefore the evaporation slows (less water). This is a huge commitment and investment for any business.

We do believe that there will be continued and growing interest in aged Tawny’s.
Symington Family
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Re: DOMINIC SYMINGTON

Post by Symington Family »

Hello Julian, what would I do differently? Not much, spend more time with my family perhaps.
In reality I've thoroughly enjoyed the work and the challenge but I would love to spoend more time in the Douro and the vieyards.

Moses, I can't answer for other shippers but I assume they are looking after tehre own stocks od ageing wines.
Regarding Vintage port. I think that there has never been such consistency and quality from virtually all producers. Obviously everyone will have there own preferences but the overall quality of Vintage Port has never been better.
Symington Family
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Re: DOMINIC SYMINGTON

Post by Symington Family »

Jamie, my view of Vintage Port is that is goes through 3 distinct phases;

Very young vintage port with primary flavours, in the first year or so one can almost consider them to be "wine" rather than Port! Here we have bright fresh flavours.

This is followed by the secondary phase where the fruits become a bit richer and move into the cooked or dried black fruit - prune - flavour profile. The tannins begin to round off on the pallet but are still very firm and structured. We're still very much in the deep ruby red colour spectrum but just beginning to have a slight opening on the rim.

The 3rd or tertiary phase is when the wines start to lose the colour and move into the more open (tawny - mature vintage) colour scheme. here we move into the mellow flavours, saddle leather, tobacco leaf etc.

From an age perspective we probably have approximately 10 years in the 1st. phase, from 10 to 20 in the second an dthen gradually moving into the 3rd. phase. Obviously this will vary form shipper to shipper and Vintage year to Vintage year.
Symington Family
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Re: DOMINIC SYMINGTON

Post by Symington Family »

Glenn E. wrote:Graham's Stone Terraces and Vesuvio Capela are both relatively recent additions to what some of us refer to as the "super cuvee" category of Vintage Ports. They seem to sell very well, along with Vargellas Vinha Velha and Noval Nacional. It is a category (for lack of a better word) that interests me, both from a marketing perspective and from a wine-making perspective.

So... from the marketing perspective, do you think there is room for more Ports in this category? How do you think their presence affects the perception of regular Vintage Port which is normally marketed as the best that the house can produce?

And from the wine-making perspective, is this type of Port more challenging (or more interesting) to make? With such a limited source of grapes, how much can the wine maker do to "turn around" a merely good year and make a great super cuvee? Or is this a category where you're more inclined to simply take what nature gives you and let the resulting wine express the terroir?
Glenn, I think you've almost answered your own question with your last sentence.
I agree with you that there is most probably room for more of these "garagiste" wines.
Although I can't speak for my colleagues I think that these wines are different from "regular" Vintage offerings, they are wines that perhaps speak more directly about the individuality of the year. We, at both Malvedos & Vesuvio have identified a couple of small parcels of vines that we believe deliver particular characteristics, these are vinified separately from other lots and then, essentially we wait to see what we have managed to make.
As I believe you know, we had experimented with these lots for a few vintages before finally releasing both Capela and The Stone Terraces.
These wines are not necessarily more diffciult to make than other potential vintage worthy lots, all are treated with the same care and attention.
Symington Family
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Re: DOMINIC SYMINGTON

Post by Symington Family »

Paul Fountain wrote:Dominic,
The Cockburn's house seems to be ticking along nicely under SFE Stewardship.

What sort of the changes did you need to make from operational, wine making and viticultural perspectives to the Cockburn's brand and infrastructure after your acquisition?
Would you consider other acquisitions should labels become available in the near future?

And slightly off topic... what is the future for the Gould Campbell label given that there wasn't a declaration in 2011?

regards

Paul
Thank you Paul, we're delighted you think we're doing a good job with Cockburn's...
Cockburn's had some of the best vineyards in the Douro valley. The research that they had done on Touriga Nacional, root stock selection etc. was groundbreaking and as important to the region as the work carried out by José Antonio Rosas (Ramos Pinto) and João Nicolau de Almeida.
Their winemaking was perhaps a little old fashioned although they had created, at the time, the worlds single largest selling Port brand "Special Reserve" so they were certainly doing something right! We have however adapted the winemaking to our system and phylosphy but, as with all our wines we wish the terroir to speak and create the "house style".
We have tried to reinstall a family ethos into the brand, re-attaching the brand to its heritage and pedigree. In this way we believe that we can take Cockburn's back to the position it held as one of the preeminent port brands
Blair Curtis
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Re: DOMINIC SYMINGTON

Post by Blair Curtis »

Hello Dominic,

I'm curious about the shift in branding (for lack of a better term) away from "Colheita" and towards "Single Harvest Tawny". Was this in response to confusion in the market? Was this choice to appeal to a broader market base, including consumers who are not regular Port drinkers?

Cheers,
Blair
Cheers, B.
Brian C.
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Re: DOMINIC SYMINGTON

Post by Brian C. »

Hi Dominic,

I've enjoyed reading your responses. I have a few questions from the business side of things:

1) I am curious about the strategy of having numerous port houses under one umbrella. I realize that initially, a house can be improved by much needed capital infusions and proven management savvy, but do you find it relatively easy to maintain the distinct style with each brand of port, or is there real risk that houses under your umbrella will start becoming too similar to one another over the long run? Is there any significant self cannibalization risk from this approach? Also, how much does economy of scale factor into deciding to add another house to the portfolio?

2) I would imagine that there is significant currency risk with your operation, given how much of the port consumption market doesn't use the Euro. Do you hedge this risk at all? If so, how do you go about it? If not, what would be the reasons?

Thanks for taking the time on this board.

Regards,

Brian
Last edited by Brian C. on Mon Nov 10, 2014 1:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Symington Family
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Re: DOMINIC SYMINGTON

Post by Symington Family »

Blair Curtis wrote:Hello Dominic,

I'm curious about the shift in branding (for lack of a better term) away from "Colheita" and towards "Single Harvest Tawny". Was this in response to confusion in the market? Was this choice to appeal to a broader market base, including consumers who are not regular Port drinkers?

Cheers,
Blair
Yes, you are largely correct, although those who know port are perfectly familar with the term Colheita and what it stands for there was clearly some confusion with what the word meant amongst what you term as "not regular port drinkers".
We thought it best to avoid the vintage tawny term so as to avoid confusion with true vintage port.
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