DOMINIC SYMINGTON

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Symington Family
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Re: DOMINIC SYMINGTON

Post by Symington Family »

Rune EG wrote:Hello Dominic!
In my previous question about the importance of the Douro wines in the years to come, you replied:
"Douro DOC; we are sure that the Douro wine category will continue to grow and will become an increasingly important part of our business."

Do you have plans of releasing new labels of red or white, or will you rather be expanding volumes of the labels already introduced to the market?
Or may be both ways?

Regards
Rune
Hi Rune, how's Norway? Here we're under never ending rain. It seems that apart from a 2 weeks - when I was away! It hasn't stopped since it strate din the middle of the vintage!

No, we don't have any plans to release any new labels. At the moment the focus must be on consolidating and developing our existing markets and sales. The global "wine" category is extremely crowded with some fantastic and some considerably less so!) wines from the 4 corners of the globe, Portugal as a country and the the recognition is has makes the introduction of Portuguese wines extremely difficult! We're slowly getting there but it's hard work. One of our biggets problems is price - the classic answer is - great wine, Portugal ... cheap! For what it's worth last month the Wine Spectator gave 6 or so Douro wines 96 + points - how good is that? But we still have a struggle.
In all reality, the success of the Douro wine (DOC) market is fundemantal to the ongoing success and vitality of the Douro region as a viticultural region and the source of greta fruit for port! The Douro can't survice economically just on port grapes, it needs to be a vibrant successful "grape" growing region for both port and the wines.
I think this partially answers some other quetsions that have been posted.
Symington Family
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Re: DOMINIC SYMINGTON

Post by Symington Family »

John F. Newman wrote:Mr. Symington,

Bom dia.

I've been reading your answers, and am intrigued by the question of stock management. You mentioned feeling like you need a crystal ball. My question is whether you retain someone whose background is in mathematics, like an actuarial, to help predict stock management.

To that end, what technical or scientific aspects of this business exist that our forum members would be most surprised to discover?

And my last question concerns your non-fortified traditional wines. It seems that in the past several years, Portugal has received a lot of good press for its wines, food, culture and the entire country as a travel destination. What do you think of the current market for Portuguese wines in general and what do you expect for its future?

Muito obrigado,

John
Muito boa noite Senhor João
In reality it's slightly less a mathematical conundrum that an ability to forsee trends. We have a pretty good handle on managing our ageing stock, we know how much we need, we have a fairly good notion of the split between the various aged tawny's, price positions etc. As I'm sure you can imagine, an accountant or an investor would say that we are abslutely crazy to lay stock down for a believed demand in 40 years! But this question is exactly why multinational groups simply don't undertstand the port trade and family businesses do! We are able to take a longterm view while a business that is reporting to share holders 4 times a year and distributing dividends might take rather different view.

I've partially answered your question on the challenges facing Douro and Portuguese wines in a reply to Rune. We, and a large number of our friends both in the Douro and elsewhere in Portugal are absolutely determined to make a success with our wines - but it's certainly not easy! We have the most amazing selection of indigeneous varietals, very distinctive flavour and regional styles. It'll take time & lots of hard work from all of us.

Pleas egive me a little time to answer your second question!
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Re: DOMINIC SYMINGTON

Post by Symington Family »

Andy Velebil wrote:Hi Dom,

A question about Douro table wines; It's safe to say "modern" Douro wines started round about the late 1990's to early 2000's. What changes have you seen from the early days to now, such as oak treatment, changes in styles, etc?

What changes do you predict will happen in the future?

And thanks again for taking the time to answer our questions!
Hi Andy ...
Douro "wine" started, as you say in the early 1990's, although others also started with wines in my mind Dirk was the driving force behind the category. He was, one could almost say, absolutely single minded and determined to make a success of this "new" idea. Although a bit of a maverick Barca Velha ha sbeen around since the 50's - and Roy will attest to this, he & I enjoyed a 1966 a few weeks ago in Denmark and I have to say it is easily in the top 10 best wines I have tasted in the last 5 or 6 years! Absolutely outstanding!
I think the key is as you mention, oak treatment, and tannin managment. The Douro is by nature an extremly harsh climate,very mineral and with virtually no organic material in the soil. The vines have also evolved with very firm tannins but also with an extrodunary balance of acidity. Certainly for us, and with the undeniable help from Bruno Prats and our Chryseia project, was how to use wood to work the tannins while not transfering to much into the wine - we quickly started working with larger barrels, greater proportional volume to surface contact. Although we do occasionaly use a small proportion of classic 225 barrique the vast majority are 350 or 400 Lt barrels.
We are also looking to be more and more delicate with our grape handling from vine to fermenter, the less interference with the grape until such time as it arrives in the fermenter the better. There are some quite fun "toys" that help us, but as with all "boys toys" they don't come cheap. A new style de-stemmer can cost some €35,000 for 3 or 4 weeks work! But our wine guys love it! We have one for the Vesuvio wines and another for the Chryseia family. This is one of 4 separate steps between receiving the grapes and delivering them to the fermenter - this year the various stages rejected over 50% of the fruit! - Selection table - new de-stemmer - second selction table - Mistral (vibrating table with an forced air curtain the grapes fall through - only full berries are heavy enough not to be blown away - adjustable pressure) Some of these are absolutely standard for winemaking, however the Mistral is quite a fun "toy" but the new verticle de-stemmer is amazing!
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Re: DOMINIC SYMINGTON

Post by Paul Fountain »

Hi Dominic,
Your mention of drinking the Warres Otima made me think of something I'd been meaning to ask about.
I see that the Warre's Otima and the Cockburn's 10 year old are available in 500ml bottles (I'm sure there are others too, but they don't make it out my way) while other tawny styles such as the Graham's remain in the 750 ml bottles.
What factors dictate whether a 500ml or 750 ml bottle is used? And do you bottle different sizes for different markets?
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Re: DOMINIC SYMINGTON

Post by Kent Benson »

David Guimaraens recently stated that the change in 1991, allowing port houses to buy their spirit, has been the single most important factor in the improvement of port quality. Do you agree with this assertion? Could you talk about exactly what the change was, how it came about and how it has impacted port quality? While you’re on the subject, could you also clarify the term aguardente? When used by port producers, does it refer to a specific type of neutral spirit, or does it refer to all neutral spirits?
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Re: DOMINIC SYMINGTON

Post by Brian C. »

HI Dominic,

Thanks so much for answering the questions I posed earlier. I just thought of another question for you.

Obviously your company is going to be part of any decision by the port trade to generally declare a vintage. There seems to be an unwritten rule about three generally declared vintages per decade. Given that rule, it would preclude back to back general declarations (aside from split declarations), and make it pretty unlikely to have general declarations in years ending in 8 or 9. To an untrained observer, all of this seems pretty peculiar. What are the reasons behind this phenomenon, and do you see this phenomenon changing at all?
Symington Family
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Re: DOMINIC SYMINGTON

Post by Symington Family »

Paul Fountain wrote:Hi Dominic,
Your mention of drinking the Warres Otima made me think of something I'd been meaning to ask about.
I see that the Warre's Otima and the Cockburn's 10 year old are available in 500ml bottles (I'm sure there are others too, but they don't make it out my way) while other tawny styles such as the Graham's remain in the 750 ml bottles.
What factors dictate whether a 500ml or 750 ml bottle is used? And do you bottle different sizes for different markets?
Hello Paul
The decision to offer in 500 rather than 750 is a marketing and price point issue. With Warre’s Otima we wanted to appeal to a slightly different market, new, younger consumers and a more contemporary image. Cockburn’s had introduced the 5000 before we acquired the brand but we thought it useful to continue with their strategy.
The bottle size of course has no influence on the wine.

We have shipped a small amount of Cockburn's 10 to Australia so if you look hard enough (!) you may find some - good luck.
Symington Family
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Re: DOMINIC SYMINGTON

Post by Symington Family »

Brian C. wrote:HI Dominic,

Thanks so much for answering the questions I posed earlier. I just thought of another question for you.

Obviously your company is going to be part of any decision by the port trade to generally declare a vintage. There seems to be an unwritten rule about three generally declared vintages per decade. Given that rule, it would preclude back to back general declarations (aside from split declarations), and make it pretty unlikely to have general declarations in years ending in 8 or 9. To an untrained observer, all of this seems pretty peculiar. What are the reasons behind this phenomenon, and do you see this phenomenon changing at all?

A decision to Declare a vintage is taken entirely individually by each producer individualy. There is no committee or meeting to decide if or not a vintage is declared. Of course, the Douro region is generally fairly homogeneous in its weather conditions therefore what is good for me is generally good for my neighbour, hence, normally fairly uniform declarations. We also of course see each other frequently and generally all get on pretty well so it’s natural that we will chat about these things but there is no formal trade-wide decision forum.
Of course wines need to be submitted to the IVDP for acceptance, but all port does. It’s most important to understand that neither the IVDP nor any other institution “declares” a vintage – each producer decides depending on their own criteria.
Also, the 3 times a decade thing is again a coincidence, if one looks back over the last few decades we have some 5 or 6 year gaps and some 2 year gaps.

Looking for a reason why one or other year hasn’t been declared is a total red-herring, it’s purely a coincidence. There is no conspiracy theory!
I can’t speak for my colleagues but we have one simple and overriding rule – is the wine good enough? If it is we will then take a view to declare or not. There have in the past been the odd occasion when a vintage wasn’t declared due to economic or political situations, but in reality and considering the longevity of port, by the time the wine is drinking everyone has forgotten what happened (generally!)
I must admit, that personally, I see no reason why we shouldn't declare back to back vintages if the wines are good enough.
Paul Fountain
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Re: DOMINIC SYMINGTON

Post by Paul Fountain »

Symington Family wrote:
Paul Fountain wrote:Hi Dominic,

We have shipped a small amount of Cockburn's 10 to Australia so if you look hard enough (!) you may find some - good luck.
I already have! [cheers.gif]
The Cockburns bottle is quite distinctive with the square shoulders.
The 500 ml bottle has become the default size for the local fortified wines in Australia in recent years.
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Andy Velebil
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Re: DOMINIC SYMINGTON

Post by Andy Velebil »

Hi Dom,

Yesterday I read an article about how Bordeaux prices in China, and thus world wide, have plummeted recently as they have largely lost interest in the wines. There was a lot of chatter in the news and within the trade regarding Port and Portuguese wines being sold there, and other Asian markets as well. Are the Chinese, and other Asian markets, still interested in Port as they were in the beginning or have they moved on to other interests now?

What countries do you see are the largest, or fastest, growing markets at the moment for Douro wines and Port?

Thanks again for your time and insightful answers!
Andy Velebil Good wine is a good familiar creature if it be well used. William Shakespeare http://www.fortheloveofport.com
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John M.
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Re: DOMINIC SYMINGTON

Post by John M. »

Dear Dom;

Thanks for the great insightful reply about LBVs--your answers were magnificent. A couple of follow up questions if you don't mind...

1. Why not make more traditional LBVs? Is it a balance thing as you want to offer both choices amongst your portfolio of brands? I notice too with the Warre's and Smith Woodhouse that you don't release them until they are about 10 years old and aged a little whereas the others are released when bottled....could it be a storage/cost issue?

2. Crusted Ports: Not many of these are made and they seem in some ways similar to LBVs, yet there is the aspect of blending that could produce some great results. Is there some reason there aren't more crusted ports?

Thank you again!
Any Port in a storm!
Symington Family
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Re: DOMINIC SYMINGTON

Post by Symington Family »

Today I'm going to start by not answering any questions but to tell you a couple of things that happened today.
Firstly I went to the Douro to deal with some issues at my mothers house. But the best thing was the Douro is looking absolutely spectaular at the moment with the leave turning, it really was beautiful.
Secondly, and possibly relevant to these pages is that Chryseia 2011 has just been nominated Nº3 wine in the Wine Spectator Top 100 for 2014, not bad for the new kids on the block! ... and nearly as good news is that our friends the Olazabals from Vale Meão come in Nº4. Great news for the Douro in general.
Symington Family
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Re: DOMINIC SYMINGTON

Post by Symington Family »

Paul Fountain wrote:
Symington Family wrote:
Paul Fountain wrote:Hi Dominic,

We have shipped a small amount of Cockburn's 10 to Australia so if you look hard enough (!) you may find some - good luck.
I already have! [cheers.gif]
The Cockburns bottle is quite distinctive with the square shoulders.
The 500 ml bottle has become the default size for the local fortified wines in Australia in recent years.
Thanks Paul, since we bought Cockburn's we've moved back to more conventional bottles, but the 10 is still in 500's. Kee up the good work! Much appreciated. Come and visit us one day!
Symington Family
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Re: DOMINIC SYMINGTON

Post by Symington Family »

Kent Benson wrote:David Guimaraens recently stated that the change in 1991, allowing port houses to buy their spirit, has been the single most important factor in the improvement of port quality. Do you agree with this assertion? Could you talk about exactly what the change was, how it came about and how it has impacted port quality? While you’re on the subject, could you also clarify the term aguardente? When used by port producers, does it refer to a specific type of neutral spirit, or does it refer to all neutral spirits?
Hi Kent,
David is a very good friend of mine and we’ve worked our way through a serious number of bottles debating this point!
To be honest, I totally disagree with him! For us they single most important factor in good port and the improvement in quality that we have seen in the last 20 or 30 years is the grape and the vineyard and David is one of the leading exponents of viticultural reform. You simply can’t make great wine unless you have great fruit. The improvement in viticulture and the resultant quality of the fruit has been absolutely fundamental. A great wine is made in the vineyard …. (not in the winery!)

Next question – aguardente simply means brandy, there is nothing strange or magical about the word. Literally, in Portuguese it means “burning water” and is the general term for “brandy” or distilled wine.

In the past brandy was supplied by a Government Monopoly via the (then) IVP. Shortly after Portugal joined the EU things such as monopolies were broken-up and the port producers were allowed to buy as they chose.
Clearly this allowed for better quality brandy’s to be sourced, cleaner, more pure and this has undoubtedly had a tremendous impact on the wines but, certainly in our opinion, we wish for our wines to speak of the terroir and the grapes.
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Re: DOMINIC SYMINGTON

Post by Bjarne Mouridsen »

Dear Dominic
Thanks for your answers so far. I have another question. SFE recently bought Cockburns, Fladgates Krohns. And then we have Sogevinus and Sogrape with all their brands. Looking into the future, do you think that this will continue? A few companies with a lot of different brands (and doing a lot of effort to keep them as different brands :-)) and then all the small more or less family owned single quintas. Or will there still be companies somewhere in the middle?
Regards from Denmark
Bjarne Mouridsen
Symington Family
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Re: DOMINIC SYMINGTON

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Marco D. wrote:Hello Dominic,

My son was born in 2005 and although not a generally declared vintage, I did stock up on a few 2005 ports for him (especially the Vesuvio). I was wondering what your thoughts were of that vintage and how you think it will evolve.

Also, I hear there will be a "old vines" version of the Six Grapes released. How will it differ from the original? Will it be meant for aging or enjoyment on release?

Finally, how long in bottle will a "Single Harvest" wine hold before you detect a change (a loss of freshness perhaps?).

Regards,
Marco DeFreitas
Hi Marco, 2005 was an exceptionally dry year, young vines really struggled but the Douro yet again defied expectations and produced some outstanding wines. The yields were tiny and therefore very concentrated wines, mature tannins but firm. I’ll get a bottle out and send you tasting note.
This really is an affirmation of the extraordinary resilience and adaptability of the Douro grape varietals, despite extraordinary adversity the vines still produced, a little, but exceptionally good fruit.

We have released a very small amount of a “retro” Six Grapes using a copy of the 1920’s label. It’s a selection of 5 parcels of old mixed vines from the 5 key Graham’s properties, Malvedos and Tua, Lages and Vila Velha and Vale de Malhadas. It’s extremely youthful, very structured and concentrated, masses of fruit and length. Although not designed for bottle ageing it certainly has all the ability to do so.

All Single Harvest wines have the ability to be kept for a good number of year unopened, assuming normal dark cellar conditions. These wines aren’t necessarily designed for further ageing, a Tawny Port by nature is bottled when the producer believes it’s showing at its best but they certainly won’t suffer.
The loss of freshness is only an issue after opening the bottle and after leaving it for 8-10 weeks, which I certainly hope isn’t an issue with any of the readers of this site!!!!
I’ve come across many Aged Tawny’s and old bottled Colheita’s that are still in perfect condition. They may on occasion has developed a slight haze but generally, even after 40 or 50 years of bottle they’ll still be in very good condition.
Probably the greatest challenge for these wines, if you wish to cellar them for a long time, is the closure, T top. Which although perfectly adequate to “keep the port in the bottle” it will allow a greater amount of transition than a full size driven cork.
As an example; I was given a bottle of Warre’s 20 YO, bottled in 1970 a couple of years ago. It was bottled to celebrate the tercentenary of Warre’s. The wine was hazy but it had taken on a “deeper creamier” mouth-feel but otherwise was a 20 YO tawny 20 with a “difference”. It was one of those flavours that one can’t quite describe, one knew what it was but is was different. I’ve kept the (empty) bottle.
Symington Family
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Re: DOMINIC SYMINGTON

Post by Symington Family »

Andy Velebil wrote:Hi Dom,

Yesterday I read an article about how Bordeaux prices in China, and thus world wide, have plummeted recently as they have largely lost interest in the wines. There was a lot of chatter in the news and within the trade regarding Port and Portuguese wines being sold there, and other Asian markets as well. Are the Chinese, and other Asian markets, still interested in Port as they were in the beginning or have they moved on to other interests now?

What countries do you see are the largest, or fastest, growing markets at the moment for Douro wines and Port?

Thanks again for your time and insightful answers!

Hi Andy
I think that a couple of things have had a dramatic effect on the Chinese market, the new President and the clamp down on excess.
Fortunately or unfortunately, Port was never in quite the same league as Classed Growth Claret, here however one must recognise that it was only some 20 or 30 properties – out of some 35,000 “chateaux” in Bordeaux. Yes, far fewer as “Classed Growths”, but not 20 or 30.
Port, sadly, doesn’t have the same market penetration as Bordeaux or Burgundy (the new love of the Oriental market) etc … and therefore our market approach has to be different, softer, and critically, long term. It’s by no means the El Dorado but with careful management we can make it a sustainable market in the long term. But it’s going to take time. As mentioned previously, we always take a long term view, be it with our stock, be it with our market development.

The US & Canada still have a huge amount of potential, Southern America has potential but suffers from massive barriers and constraints. Europe is a mature Port market and some countries in particular have some quiet serious problems but we do have lots of potential, particularly for the wines. Russia has huge potential for port but currently has some difficulties. Asia N & SE, as indicated above have potential but it’ll take time.
Symington Family
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Re: DOMINIC SYMINGTON

Post by Symington Family »

John M. wrote:Dear Dom;

Thanks for the great insightful reply about LBVs--your answers were magnificent. A couple of follow up questions if you don't mind...

1. Why not make more traditional LBVs? Is it a balance thing as you want to offer both choices amongst your portfolio of brands? I notice too with the Warre's and Smith Woodhouse that you don't release them until they are about 10 years old and aged a little whereas the others are released when bottled....could it be a storage/cost issue?

2. Crusted Ports: Not many of these are made and they seem in some ways similar to LBVs, yet there is the aspect of blending that could produce some great results. Is there some reason there aren't more crusted ports?

Thank you again!
Hi John,
This takes us back to our forecasting model! Simple, we don’t sell more ….. and therefore we produce and bottle to more or less what we project forward we can sell, quality permitting. This is why sometimes a new “Traditional (Bottle Matured) LBV” comes into the market at 8 or so years and sometimes at 10+. Our policy is to release these wines when they are mature and ready to drink.

Crusted Port are essentially very similar to the “traditional” LBV’s in that they are wines for bottle ageing. They are blends of more than one year and feature the bottling year, not vintage year on the label. Theya re wines with all the potential for further bottle ageing and to take on the flavour profile and style of bottle matured port (aka Vintage).
Crusted seems to a particularly British thing with a small demand in Canada.
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Re: DOMINIC SYMINGTON

Post by Symington Family »

Bjarne Mouridsen wrote:Dear Dominic
Thanks for your answers so far. I have another question. SFE recently bought Cockburns, Fladgates Krohns. And then we have Sogevinus and Sogrape with all their brands. Looking into the future, do you think that this will continue? A few companies with a lot of different brands (and doing a lot of effort to keep them as different brands :-)) and then all the small more or less family owned single quintas. Or will there still be companies somewhere in the middle?
Regards from Denmark
Bjarne Mouridsen
Hello Bjarne
As with most business, the guy in the middle has a tough time. The larger companies have economies of scale, the small companies can work niche markets, the middle guys are neither fish nor fowl. The same rule applies to the Port business.
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Re: DOMINIC SYMINGTON

Post by Andy Velebil »

Symington Family wrote:Today I'm going to start by not answering any questions but to tell you a couple of things that happened today.
Firstly I went to the Douro to deal with some issues at my mothers house. But the best thing was the Douro is looking absolutely spectaular at the moment with the leave turning, it really was beautiful.
Secondly, and possibly relevant to these pages is that Chryseia 2011 has just been nominated Nº3 wine in the Wine Spectator Top 100 for 2014, not bad for the new kids on the block! ... and nearly as good news is that our friends the Olazabals from Vale Meão come in Nº4. Great news for the Douro in general.
Fantastic news. Congratulations!!!!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Andy Velebil Good wine is a good familiar creature if it be well used. William Shakespeare http://www.fortheloveofport.com
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