TN (sort of): But what is this? - help me out, please

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Otto Nieminen
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TN (sort of): But what is this? - help me out, please

Post by Otto Nieminen »

All I know of this wine is that on the label there is Vinho Generoso Colheita de 1937 Garrafeira Particular. Who is the producer? From where in Portugal does it come?

The reason I put the "sort of" in the title is that this was slightly musty/corked - but only a touch, so one of such insensitivity to cork as me was able to enjoy all the other fascinating stuff I found in the glass. It was toffeed and smelled of crystallised orange and coffee. The palate was sweet and elegant, again with the orange tones I found in the nose. The acidity of the wine is very refreshing and keeps the sugar well in check. Moderate length. Stylistically it seemed to me much like an old Colheita Port - is this what this is?

Perhaps it is foolish writing a TN on a slightly corked wine, but as it still brought pleasure and since I have questions on what this is, I'll just don a tin helmet and post it anyway! ;)

-Otto-
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Roy Hersh
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Post by Roy Hersh »

Hi Otto,

Your Port is indeed Colheita. 1937 is one of the more widely known older years for production of top notch Colheitas. I recently held a tasting at which there were nearly 30 ancient Colheitas, 9 of which were from 1937 ... although most were older.

I am wondering if you allowed your bottle to open up fully. Sometimes the really old bottles show some bottle stink, especially if these are not "recent bottlings" of old Colheitas. Look for the date of bottling for a further clue, but unless you can provide more information, from what you have given us it would be impossible to discern who the producer is/was. Did it have a driven cork or a T-stopper?

I am glad that you tried to see the beauty beneath the mustiness. Did you revisit it later to see if it had improved?

Last but not least, is there any reason you did not include this in the main Port Forum?
Ambition driven by passion, rather than money, is as strong an elixir as is Port. http://www.fortheloveofport.com
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Otto Nieminen
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Post by Otto Nieminen »

Hello Roy,

Yes, I understand that the bottle was opened several days before I got to taste the glass, so I don't think it was bottle stink.

There is indeed a reason I posted here rather than in the Port forum. I was under the impression that "Vinho Generoso" was a name that Port, Madeira, Carcavelos and Setúbal were allowed to use, so theoretically it could be any of these! It doesn't have the VA/pungency of Madeira, but I could imagine from what I've had of the other three styles that it could be any of them. Also, since Port is so well known, I would imagine any Port producer would use that name instead of Vinho Generoso on the label, so I surmised that this would probably be Setúbal or Carcavelos. Am I wrong in my musings?

I'll ask to get a picture of the label - if I do, I'll post it here. Maybe that will answer some of the questions.

-Otto-
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Roy Hersh
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Post by Roy Hersh »

It is certainly "possible" that it is a Setubal, although you probably would be able to taste the Moscatel influence rather than the typical flavors of a Colheita. I have had the '37 from Jose Maria de Fonseca along with every vintage between 1927 and 1962. So it does exist. A picture would be worth a thousand words as I can pick out a Setubal bottle pretty easily. Post those photos. :)
Ambition driven by passion, rather than money, is as strong an elixir as is Port. http://www.fortheloveofport.com
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Otto Nieminen
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Post by Otto Nieminen »

Roy Hersh wrote:A picture would be worth a thousand words as I can pick out a Setubal bottle pretty easily. Post those photos. :)
I finally got a picture of the bottle. Does this help at all in identifying what it is?

Image

Best,
Otto
Todd Pettinger
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Post by Todd Pettinger »

Otto,

I have no idea myself, and know that Roy is away for a little while. I am sure once he gets back and has time to view this particular thread he'll know what this is.

Myself, I would have suspected Port as well. But then again, what do I know!??!? ;)

I'll stick to drinking it, not guessing at contents of empty bottles ;)
Todd
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João Rico
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Post by João Rico »

Otto,

Em 1917, the Port Wine (since 1756), Carcavelos (1908), Moscatel de Setúbal (1907) and Madeira (1934) had already proper regulation's, as Demarcated Regions. The designation “Generoso” is itself ancient, and of common use by that time and was perpetuated in the law by 1946. By that law, "Generoso" became considered as a more noble "Licoroso" wine and only used by our 4 regions that i spoke above.

That “Generoso” of 1937, without designation of region, looks to me one of two things:

1- One Licoroso from any region outside the principal 4 ( Ribatejo and Estremadura were producing a lot of these licorosos)

2 - this can be a strong possibility......a wine made in the Douro by some producer for himself and friends, as it was an habitué in those times. Those wines couldn't be labeled as Port (the ports had trough pass Gaia's Entreposto) and just showed up as "Vinho Fino" and in some cases "Generoso"
This mystery can only be solved if the label shows the local (Village or town) where it was made, since this was common that time
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Roy Hersh
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Post by Roy Hersh »

Looking at the bottle, I am baffled, as I have never seen a Burgundy shaped bottle in any old Port cellar. The glass itself in this shape was very uncommon in the Douro. I still suspect Setubal but am not really sure. Hopefully, someone with more knowledge of this wine will come forth.
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João Rico
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Post by João Rico »

IMHO it's not Moscatel de Setúbal and neither the others 3 principal regions, almost for sure.
In 1937 all the producer's were labeling with the word Moscatél de Setúbal or just Setubal. It would be possible to come from setubal but not from the grape Moscatel.
From the tasting notes it really could be a Abafadinho (same as Licoroso) from Ribatejo and from the grape Fernão Pires as the one i brought to a dinner with Mark Squires a wine like that but from 1957.
I think it is impossible to know based only of the word Generoso.



João Rico

PS - Otto, i really forgot....this answer is the same for that 1917 we talked a while ago e Advocate Forum. It comes from a research in IVV archives and in the wine magazine "Revista de Vinhos"
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