Beijing 2008

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Derek T.
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Beijing 2008

Post by Derek T. »

Is anyone watching this?

I love the Olympics. It's great to see some of these sports that I would never otherwise watch. The artistry in the opening ceremony was something to behold (if you forget that the money it cost may have been better spent in China on houses and sanitation!)

I'd be interested in views on the sports and also the political dimension of these games. For the record, I support them wholeheartedly. My view is that leaving a country like China in the political and social wilderness is bad and ultimately dangerous. Join hands and move forward is my view.
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Glenn E.
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Re: Beijing 2008

Post by Glenn E. »

I've been watching, and it's really fun. Sadly it's tough to see much on US TV other than US athletes. Not too surprisingly, they've been focusing a lot of attention on swimming. And since I was a swimmer in my youth, it's fun for me to watch. The 4 x 100 meter relay was simply incredible - 2 teams broke the world record and didn't even medal. The record came down 4 seconds in this Olympics... it took 20 years to drop the previous 4 seconds.

I did get to watch Korea vs China in women's team archery, and that was pretty cool. I also saw a few prelims for rowing, and part of equestrian eventing.
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Derek T.
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Re: Beijing 2008

Post by Derek T. »

Glenn,

The swimming has been great to watch. That 4 x 100 was amazing, although the times are easily attributable to the new Speedo suits. There is no way that all of these athletes could improve so much in such a short space of time. In one of the events I heard the comentator report that a world record winning time from last years World Championship wouldn't make the cut for the final race this year. Drugs or new swimsuits? I hope it's the latter :wink:

...and archery was much more fun in ancient Greece when the teams stood at either end of the arena and shot each other :devil: :lol:
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Andy Velebil
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Re: Beijing 2008

Post by Andy Velebil »

Derek T. wrote:There is no way that all of these athletes could improve so much in such a short space of time. In one of the events I heard the comentator report that a world record winning time from last years World Championship wouldn't make the cut for the final race this year. Drugs or new swimsuits? I hope it's the latter :wink:
There is a new form of EPO that is out. It is much harder to detect and a couple of pro cyclists have already been caught using it. I find it hard to believe that times came down that much in a short time by the use of a new swim suit. I recall when speeds at the Tour de France went sky high fast...and it was later proved to be drug influenced :soapbox:

Sadly I don't watch the Olympics much anymore. I am like Glenn, I am tired of only seeing the media over here only show US athletes. I know they need to focus a bit on our own country, but at least let me enjoy the rest in a less biased way.
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Glenn E.
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Re: Beijing 2008

Post by Glenn E. »

The "new" EPO is called CERA, and it's actually been around for a while. My understanding of it is that it is a percursor to EPO sort of in the same way that Androstenedione is a precursor to steroids. It's actually fairly easy to detect because it remains in the bloodstream longer than EPO, but some people have tried using it instead of EPO under the belief that it isn't detected by EPO testing. Which is true, but testing for CERA is pretty trivially added to a standard drug test regime.

The records in Beijing aren't just the suit - the pool that the Chinese built is also engineered to be as perfect as possible. It is deeper and wider than previous Olympic pools, both of which help neutralize chop in the water. The lane dividers are specially designed to deflect waves downward into the deeper pool instead of reflecting them back into the swimming lanes. And the edges of the pool are rimmed with special drains also designed to absorb waves generated by the swimmers. I think I read that one of the American coaches estimated that the pool itself may be worth as much as half a second per 100 meters for sprinters.

The Speedo LZR Racer is obviously also helping, but people have medaled without it in Beijing. So it's not the sole reason for the speed increases.
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Andy Velebil
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Re: Beijing 2008

Post by Andy Velebil »

Actually, from what I've read about CERA, is it is relatively new in the scheme of EPO (which has been around for many many years..I remember lots of young top cyclist droping dead of massive heart attacks in their sleep from taking to much EPO when no one really knew what amount was safe and wouldn't kill you, athletically speaking). As CERA was being developed, the drugs manufactuer actually worked with WADA during its development so it could be more easily detectable in dope testing. That is why pro cyclists were targeted this year (it was not random testing, they did a lot of profiling based on results this year) and why they were able to locate it so quickly this year in dope tests. IIRC, this was the first time a drug manufacturer worked with an anti-doping agency to develop a test at the same time as the drug was being developed. A very good thing if you ask me.
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Moses Botbol
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Re: Beijing 2008

Post by Moses Botbol »

As a badminton lover and synchronized diving fan, the Olympics rock. I could watch shooting all day.
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Todd Pettinger
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Re: Beijing 2008

Post by Todd Pettinger »

Andy Velebil wrote:Actually, from what I've read about CERA, is it is relatively new in the scheme of EPO (which has been around for many many years..I remember lots of young top cyclist droping dead of massive heart attacks in their sleep from taking to much EPO when no one really knew what amount was safe and wouldn't kill you, athletically speaking). As CERA was being developed, the drugs manufactuer actually worked with WADA during its development so it could be more easily detectable in dope testing. That is why pro cyclists were targeted this year (it was not random testing, they did a lot of profiling based on results this year) and why they were able to locate it so quickly this year in dope tests. IIRC, this was the first time a drug manufacturer worked with an anti-doping agency to develop a test at the same time as the drug was being developed. A very good thing if you ask me.
I agree, this is is a very good thing. However, if you ask me, which I know you haven't, but I have just finished an entire bottle of Port and am seriously considering opening a second one to continue catching up on the "ftlop" Forum here, I am going to subject you to; in the TdF Ricardo Ricco was supposedly busted for this CERA, a 3rd generation EPO variant. Problem is this: there is currently no IIAF/WADA test that POSITIVELY identifies CERA/Micera/3rd gen EPO variants in the blood or urine test. So tell me this: how in the good bloody hell was Ricco busted then?

Seems to me that he was not busted for a POSITIVE doping protocol, but rather a NON-NEGATIVE. If you think I am just drunk and confusing the two as being separate issues, you are only HALF right. A Positive is when some sort of test results in a positive for that substance being present (be it EPO or Testosterone (Floyd Landis) or whatever) whereas a NON-NEGATIVE simply is the presence of something that is not kosher in the overall results. From what little I know of the subject, a spectroanalysis of either urine or blood samples will give a fairly consistent chemical analysis under a spectrometer. EPO and 3rd gen-EPO gives a very distinct spectroanaylsis and while a definitive test has not been finalized for this 3rd gen EPO (Cera/Micera/etc.) the chemical signature is distinct.

Furthermore, many sources state that WADA/IIAF have hundreds, if not thousands of cases of this chemical signature being present in many athletes blood/urine test from many different sports, but in particular track and cycling, where boosted red-blood cell count, the key thing CERA/Micera works to achieve as it was developed for anemic patients and/or those recovering from cancer treatments in the form of radiation and/or chemotherapy, becomes a significant advantage to the athlete.

Sadly, I no longer look at the Olympics as a place where amateur athletes can showcase their talents/abilities, but where massive drug and/or clothing manufacturers can showcase their latest products and offerings. (There are rumours that several athletes in the Men's Individual Time Trial will be riding prototype Cervelo P4C bikes this morning... which is one of the reasons I am up - to try to catch a glimpse of this sweet machine!!!)

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Re: Beijing 2008

Post by Moses Botbol »

I believe there is a test to detect CERA that was not made public; developed with support of the drug manufacturer. Ricco was told it could not be detected and it was. At least he admitted and did not sting the world along on some lie. I think he is a good rider and luck to see him back as soon as his ban is completed.
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Re: Beijing 2008

Post by Andy Velebil »

I believe there is a test to detect CERA that was not made public
From what I've read the drug's manufacture secretly developed a unique signature in it so it could be detected in a dope test. This was the first time that had ever been done. Many kudos to whatever company did that and I hope more follow suit. Several people who have been caught using it this year have all confessed pretty quickly. I think when they were faced with the above information they made the wise choice. So while there is not a test for the drug itself, what they are looking for is that unique chemical signature in CERA.
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Jay Powers
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Re: Beijing 2008

Post by Jay Powers »

CERA, or Micera, is just PEGylated EPO, and shares the same exact mechanism as the other erythropoeitin stimulating agents. The addittion of polyethylen glycol chains to the protien simply has the effect of extending the half-life ofthe drug in vivo. The drug is a PEGylated protien biologic, very high molecular weight.

Micera/Micerca has not been for sale in the US, due to Roche losing a series of lawsuits with Amgen over Roche's infringement of Amgen's EPO patent estate.

Detection of the drug would have to be by ELISA, not mass spectra (unless you have a handy MALDI-toff machine nearby). That being said, it would not be difficult to detect if one had the proper ELISA kit, but routine detection by mass spec or other spectral methods seems quite unlikely to me.

The idea that Roche "built in" on purpose a signature to make detection easier is pretty unlikely if one thinks about it (although they may have sold or made available ELISA kits, which they would have certainly developed as part of their preclinical program). Given the billion or so dollars that went into the discovery and testing simply to get it to market, even as a copycat agent, to think that any drug developer would further complicate the task because the were worried about doping in bicycle racing really stretches the bounds of credulity. Why take the extra risk (remember we are talking about billions of dollar here)? Why would they care anyways? I doubt that Roche or Amgen really care too much about what some sports agency thinks about a few people using their drugs off-lable..certainly not enough to even incrementally increase the risk or complexity involved in drug development. Whats the payoff?

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Re: Beijing 2008

Post by Andy Velebil »

I knew I could count on Jay to set us straight. I stand corrected, seems earlier reports were wrong. Here is an article about it from cycling news.
WADA = World Anti-Doping Association
"No marker was inserted in the substance," the WADA spokesman said, clarifying that the tests which are being performed at the Tour de France are of a conventional nature. "Thanks to the fruitful cooperation of the manufacturer of this substance (Roche) and of WADA-accredited laboratories, which started in 2004, WADA received the molecule well in advance and was able to develop ways to detect it, including through the current EPO detection method."

A Roche spokesperson confirmed to Cyclingnews that the WADA president misspoke, and that there was nothing added to the drug to help its detection. However, news of a collaboration between the company and anti-doping authorities are true. "Roche has provided samples of Mircera and assay reagents to the World Anti-Doping Agency (WADA) to help ensure that WADA laboratories will be able to carry out reliable anti-doping testing."

Riccò's 'A' sample from the Tour de France stage four time trial in Cholet came back positive for EPO, and he and his entire team pulled out of the race. The rider and his team-mate Leonardo Piepoli were subsequently fired. The scandal led team sponsor Saunier Duval to withdraw its support of the team.

It has been widely reported in the press that the molecule found in Riccò's sample was a new form of EPO known as Mircera, or CERA. The drug, which is used to treat anaemia, stimulates the production of red blood cells. It is similar enough to previous versions of EPO that a patent dispute between Roche and its competitor Amgen has blocked the commercialisation of Mircera in the United States. Amgen's patents in Europe expired two years ago, allowing Mircera to be marketed there beginning in 2007.

CERA is a recombinant version of the protein erythropoeitin, a hormone which stimulates red blood cell production in the bone marrow, just like previous incarnations of the drug. It is distinguished from previous version of the drug by being longer acting, like Aranesp, Amgen's longer-acting drug, which was found in the urine of cross country skiers in the 2002 Salt Lake City Olympic Games.

The misunderstanding about the 'secret molecule' may have arisen from descriptions of Mircera, which called it 'pegylated', meaning that it contains a molecule of polyethylene glycol, a stabilising agent which allows it to remain active longer.

"Mircera can be differentiated in samples from both naturally occurring erythropoeitin and from all other traditional ESA products [Erythropoeisis Stimulating Agents -ed.]," a Roche spokesperson stated. "The molecule is designed to assist in advancing the management of chronic kidney disease, not detection of illegal use.

This 'pegylated' protein was rumoured to be undetectable, but cooperation between drug manufacturers and the anti-doping authorities have put detection a step ahead of the cheaters.

Mary Klem, a spokesperson for Amgen, a competitor of Roche which sponsored the Tour of California, told Cyclingnews that this kind of collaboration took place during the Salt Lake City Games, where Amgen scientific director Steve Elliott helped anti-doping authorities confirm that the skiers had Aranesp in their samples.

"Amgen has - and continues to - actively support efforts to help develop effective tests to detect doping. We recently provided a scientific research grant to develop new and improved methods for EPO testing."
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Luc Gauthier
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Re: Beijing 2008

Post by Luc Gauthier »

How many athletes would finish 4th , If the 4th place finisher were to receive a VP of his/her choice ?
Vintage avant jeunesse/or the other way around . . .
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Re: Beijing 2008

Post by Andy Velebil »

Luc Gauthier wrote:How many athletes would finish 4th , If the 4th place finisher were to receive a VP of his/her choice ?
Hmm. ONE :evil: :help: :lol: :lol: :lol:
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Luc Gauthier
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Re: Beijing 2008

Post by Luc Gauthier »

And I suppose you would be the one :roll: followed by Todd . . .
Vintage avant jeunesse/or the other way around . . .
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Re: Beijing 2008

Post by Andy Velebil »

Luc Gauthier wrote:And I suppose you would be the one :roll: followed by Todd . . .
:D :D
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Re: Beijing 2008

Post by Todd Pettinger »

"and in a photo finish we have a very rare tie between Pettinger from Canada, and Velebil from the United States. Because of this ultra-rare tie, which computer analysis could not not break, both competitors will be awarded a bottle of 1931 Noval Nacional."

mmm.... I can dream! :yumyum:
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Re: Beijing 2008

Post by Luc Gauthier »

And since Fred would be the cameraman in this hypothetical situation , and I'm the author of this hypothetical situation , we should both partake in the tasting of this hypothetical nector , hypotheticaly speaking :roll: :roll:
Vintage avant jeunesse/or the other way around . . .
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