Aging Potential - Douro DOC wines

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Joao Ramalho Carvalho
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Aging Potential - Douro DOC wines

Post by Joao Ramalho Carvalho »

Dear all,

Apparently, when we talk about aging potential, Bairrada and Dão are the standards these days for Portuguese wines. What do you think about aging potential of Douro DOC wines?
Why Port has an outstanding aging potential? Is because it is fortified? Or you need to have good base wine to endure the decades in the bottle?

Thank you for your consider my question.

Sincerely,

João
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Roy Hersh
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Re: Aging Potential - Douro DOC wines

Post by Roy Hersh »

Hi João,

Great questions!

I believe that some Douro red wines have every bit the aging potential of any red wine made in Portugal. Lots of them will be best consumed between 15-25 years of age, and there are a few currently in bottle that will likely reach 3 decades of age and still be fun to drink. Granted this is all taking place from wines produced in the mid-late 1990s and even more so, from 2004 onward. Things have really turned the corner in Douro red wine production since that 2004 vintage, in my opinion. The likes of 2004 a great year, but also very good in 2005, 2007, 2008 and stellar in 2009 and 2011 petty much across the board.

Ports are able to age only partially due to the fact that they're fortified. Of course that helps quite a bit; there's no question about it. But the indigenous grapes of the Douro and the schist laden minerality of the soil, along with hot Douro summers and typically cooler nights, provide the raw materials to create age worthy wine. The balance of powerful tannins and solid acidity also deliver the requisite dynamics which enable -- Vintage Ports or wood-aged Colheitas -- to live for many decades and sometimes even more than a century in bottle or wood then bottle in the case of Colheitas.

I hope this gives you a proper answer to your question, and I am certain there will be others that come by to provide you with other great information.

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Joao Ramalho Carvalho
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Re: Aging Potential - Douro DOC wines

Post by Joao Ramalho Carvalho »

Dear Roy,

Many thanks for your message.

As Dirk Niepoort says, the best grapes for Port are not the best for Douro DOC wines.
The truth is that Douro region has roughly 2 centuries of experience in Port but only 2 decades making decent DOC wines. With some exceptions - Barca Velha and Quinta do Cotto Grande Escolha - there were no great table wines in Douro in the early 90s. The work is to identify the best conditions for DOC production.
In fact Niepoort is, in my opinion, the leading company. They had identified the good parcels for DOC wines and how/when to pick the grapes. For instance the 2011 Batuta has an outstanding aging potential (some experts are saying the 2060 is the deadline).

So the future looks really promising in the Douro table wines. We need more producers to do it as it should be done!

Joao
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Andy Velebil
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Re: Aging Potential - Douro DOC wines

Post by Andy Velebil »

Joao Ramalho Carvalho wrote:Dear Roy,

Many thanks for your message.

As Dirk Niepoort says, the best grapes for Port are not the best for Douro DOC wines.
The truth is that Douro region has roughly 2 centuries of experience in Port but only 2 decades making decent DOC wines. With some exceptions - Barca Velha and Quinta do Cotto Grande Escolha - there were no great table wines in Douro in the early 90s. The work is to identify the best conditions for DOC production.
In fact Niepoort is, in my opinion, the leading company. They had identified the good parcels for DOC wines and how/when to pick the grapes. For instance the 2011 Batuta has an outstanding aging potential (some experts are saying the 2060 is the deadline).

So the future looks really promising in the Douro table wines. We need more producers to do it as it should be done!

Joao
I would argue the older Barca Velha is good but not "great" in the sense that many Bordeaux or California cabs can be. I do think it was a great wine for the Douro AT THE TIME however. The BV's I've had from the 1970-1990's are mostly peaked or past prime already while their counterparts in other countries are still going strong. More recent vintages I think have very solid aging potential, especially the 2004. That's not saying much as there wasn't much in the way of good Douro wines until the late 1990's.
Andy Velebil Good wine is a good familiar creature if it be well used. William Shakespeare http://www.fortheloveofport.com
Moses Botbol
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Re: Aging Potential - Douro DOC wines

Post by Moses Botbol »

Andy Velebil wrote:I would argue the older Barca Velha is good but not "great" in the sense that many Bordeaux or California cabs can be. I do think it was a great wine for the Douro AT THE TIME however. The BV's I've had from the 1970-1990's are mostly peaked or past prime already while their counterparts in other countries are still going strong.
It's hard to find CA wines that are holding up as well as the best of France, but they are out there. One factor to consider is how you like your wine. I like a lot of wine people think is too old or over the hill; just preference. What tastes too old is a matter of opinion to a degree. Bairrada and Dão are good examples mostly because of the volume and history; there's enough to try older stuff. With better wine making and cleaner wine making facilities, I see no reason why these wines especially Baga based wines can't age like the best of them. Plenty of 20 year old Touriga Nacional wines that are just sublime and Rioja can go on for decades...
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Re: Aging Potential - Douro DOC wines

Post by Eric Menchen »

Joao Ramalho Carvalho wrote:The truth is that Douro region has roughly 2 centuries of experience in Port but only 2 decades making decent DOC wines.
One could argue that the Douro has two millennia of history making red wines, but I understand where you're coming from.
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Re: Aging Potential - Douro DOC wines

Post by Alan McDonald »

First time of accessing FTLOP for several months. Various reasons, including computer and internet problems for a long time, but I am still fit, healthy and eating and drinking well. I still do a bit of work on the quinta too.

As some of you will know I buy from the lower end of the price range of all wines and drink more than most non-Portuguese wine drinkers. I found quite soon after I moved here in 2003 that I liked all my Portuguese wines (I occasionally buy some Spanish) to have at least a few years age, even if the bottle suggests it is consumed young.

I will immediately try anything new I buy in order to decide how many to buy for cellaring, and then try again at intervals. I decided a few years ago that I prefer all Douro table wines to have at least 10 years of age. As Moses says, personal preference.
Brian C.
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Re: Aging Potential - Douro DOC wines

Post by Brian C. »

Is there a dumb phase for Douro DOC wines, and if so, when does it happen?
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Re: Aging Potential - Douro DOC wines

Post by Andy Velebil »

Alan McDonald wrote:First time of accessing FTLOP for several months. Various reasons, including computer and internet problems for a long time, but I am still fit, healthy and eating and drinking well. I still do a bit of work on the quinta too.

As some of you will know I buy from the lower end of the price range of all wines and drink more than most non-Portuguese wine drinkers. I found quite soon after I moved here in 2003 that I liked all my Portuguese wines (I occasionally buy some Spanish) to have at least a few years age, even if the bottle suggests it is consumed young.

I will immediately try anything new I buy in order to decide how many to buy for cellaring, and then try again at intervals. I decided a few years ago that I prefer all Douro table wines to have at least 10 years of age. As Moses says, personal preference.
Alan,
Good to have you back. Glad to hear all is well! I also prefer a little age on most wines. I've found most basic Douro wines can age for at least a couple years. Though, past that can be dice. Of course that is depending on vintage, producer, wine, etc.
Andy Velebil Good wine is a good familiar creature if it be well used. William Shakespeare http://www.fortheloveofport.com
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Eric Ifune
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Re: Aging Potential - Douro DOC wines

Post by Eric Ifune »

The BV's I've had from the 1970-1990's are mostly peaked or past prime already while their counterparts in other countries are still going strong
I'd argue that Beaulieu Private Reserve, while they can age, are not the longest aging Californian wines. Of the 1970's, I think the 1976 and maybe the 1978 are the only ones with upswing. But, Heitz Cellars, Martha's and Bella Oaks vinyards; Burgess Cellars; some Villa Mt Eden; some Mayacamas; some Ridge Montebellos; and other mountain wines from that era still are improving. I think most Bordeaux from that era are also not improving with a few exceptions as well.
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Re: Aging Potential - Douro DOC wines

Post by Frederick Blais »

I believe Douro wines can have great aging potential.

I recently had a 1978 Barca Velha served blind across a few Bordeaux 1978 and 1982 from very reputable estate. I thought it was a 1996 St-Julien. Its colour was the youngest, the fruit the brightest and the acidity the fresher. And above all, it has definitively the best aging potential. This is definitively a isolated case for these years compare to other wine producing region.

Nowadays, there are 2 fashions in the Douro. Those who makes wines with too much of everything and I often compare those wines to so many Australian wines that will survive and slowly degrade until they lose all fruit and oak flavours.
And their is some amazing wines in the Douro that will age gracefully and deliver the complexity of the terroir. I've mostly tasted old Niepoort Redoma and beside the 1997 they were all very good. Even the undrinkable over extracted Robustus is showing well now which prove the the terroir is always coming back to the front!

For the dumb phase, I believe the more make up you give to the wine, the more chances that it will have a dumb phase(i.e transition from digesting oak) and the longer it can be. When does it happens, depends on the wines
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Andy Velebil
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Re: Aging Potential - Douro DOC wines

Post by Andy Velebil »

Frederick Blais wrote:I believe Douro wines can have great aging potential.

Nowadays, there are 2 fashions in the Douro. Those who makes wines with too much of everything and I often compare those wines to so many Australian wines that will survive and slowly degrade until they lose all fruit and oak flavours.
And their is some amazing wines in the Douro that will age gracefully and deliver the complexity of the terroir. I've mostly tasted old Niepoort Redoma and beside the 1997 they were all very good. Even the undrinkable over extracted Robustus is showing well now which prove the the terroir is always coming back to the front!
I think there is a whole lot of Douro wines that have the potential to grow old without ever growing up. Some people used huge amounts of new oak and extraction without other components to offset it for the long haul. I don't see those playing out well once the fruit starts fading and there is nothing but tons of oak left. I think that era is slowly going away as Douro wines have started to find their own identity and the wine press is no longer clambering for these overripe oak bombs.
Andy Velebil Good wine is a good familiar creature if it be well used. William Shakespeare http://www.fortheloveofport.com
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Re: Aging Potential - Douro DOC wines

Post by Alan McDonald »

Brian C. wrote:Is there a dumb phase for Douro DOC wines, and if so, when does it happen?
I think there might be a "dumb phase" for all Portuguese wines capable of ageing - and that is most of them. I particularly notice the way some of the Beira Baixo (my own area) change over time, but also Douros and Dãos. I have not worked it out yet, and it probably has as much to do with the drinker as the wine, but some that showed promise (to me) when young are rather disappointing 4 or 5 years later, and yet can be a real pleasure a few years after that.
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Re: Aging Potential - Douro DOC wines

Post by Moses Botbol »

Alan McDonald wrote:
Brian C. wrote:Is there a dumb phase for Douro DOC wines, and if so, when does it happen?
I think there might be a "dumb phase" for all Portuguese wines capable of ageing - and that is most of them. I particularly notice the way some of the Beira Baixo (my own area) change over time, but also Douros and Dãos. I have not worked it out yet, and it probably has as much to do with the drinker as the wine, but some that showed promise (to me) when young are rather disappointing 4 or 5 years later, and yet can be a real pleasure a few years after that.
For me, a good sweet spot is 10-15 years old, older for particular bottles for the above mentioned regions.
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Andy Velebil
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Re: Aging Potential - Douro DOC wines

Post by Andy Velebil »

Alan McDonald wrote:
Brian C. wrote:Is there a dumb phase for Douro DOC wines, and if so, when does it happen?
I think there might be a "dumb phase" for all Portuguese wines capable of ageing - and that is most of them. I particularly notice the way some of the Beira Baixo (my own area) change over time, but also Douros and Dãos. I have not worked it out yet, and it probably has as much to do with the drinker as the wine, but some that showed promise (to me) when young are rather disappointing 4 or 5 years later, and yet can be a real pleasure a few years after that.
A couple years ago some of the 2004 Douro's seemed to be in a closed phase. The one I had the most of, Crasto's Vinha da Ponte, went through it for a couple years and has now mostly come out of it.
Andy Velebil Good wine is a good familiar creature if it be well used. William Shakespeare http://www.fortheloveofport.com
Miguel Simoes
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Re: Aging Potential - Douro DOC wines

Post by Miguel Simoes »

Bought about a case of 2003 Alentejo and Douro Calabriga a few months back for $6/bottle and really enjoying them. Fear they might have been standing at the store for several years, but even then, prefer them to younger wines...
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