Beethoven

For things that don't fit into the other categories.

Moderators: Glenn E., Roy Hersh, Andy Velebil

Post Reply
Ray Barnes
Posts: 767
Joined: Thu Nov 13, 2008 12:43 am
Location: Surrey, British Columbia, Canada

Beethoven

Post by Ray Barnes »

In these challenging days one can remain thankful for the things that remain accessible and can help to sustain us. As Friedrich Nietzsche said, "if you have something to live for, you can live with almost any how."

The great Ludwig van Beethoven was born on December 16, 1770 - and every year on this day I make a point of playing one or more of his compositions. This titan among humanity, one whose greatest works were written when he could not hear a single note of them, continues to be a source of inspiration and spiritual comfort. One could make the same comment about his music as a pre-eminent critic made about the symphonies of Haydn, that the music is balm for the soul in a troubled world. Indeed, I would say the world is in its most troubled days since the Second World War, in a global financial conflict producing many casualties of a different kind. I was singing some of the bass text of the Ode to Joy (the choral finale of his 9th Symphony) while walking to school with my daughter this morning. Even though my daughter gave me a look as if I had fallen head first off a hay truck, the uplifting feeling of the music helped to mitigate the numbing cold.

It was singularly appropriate for this music to be featured on Christmas Day 1989, to mark the dismantling of the Berlin Wall. I believe the substitution of the word Freiheit (Freedom) for Freude (Joy) would have received the composer's imprimateur. One recalls when Napoleon declared himself Emperor, Beethoven, in a fit of rage, violently cancelled the dedication of the Eroica Symphony to him. Instead, he chose to dedicate this work to a great man. Whoever this was has been the subject of much musicological controversy. I believe - and this is a purely personal position - that under the guise of self-dedication, he was speaking about the struggle of the human condition, and that true Heroism comes from within the individual, and breaking the shackles that prevent one from achieving the fulfillment of one's potential. I feel it is a story of eventual triumph in the face of apparent death and defeat. One could make a strong argument that this deaf man freed music from its own shackles. He said, "whoever understands my music does not have the same troubles that burden other men." He was right.

I would cordially invite anyone reading this to find and listen to a recording of the slow movement (lento assai) of Beethoven's String Quartet in F Major Op. 135, a piece that seems to find a link between this world and the next. This piece, even after having heard it maybe a 100 times or more, remains a very moving, affecting work. It is also available in a transcription for string orchestra, and very effective in its own right.

...alle Menschen werden Brueder, wo dein sanfter Fluegel weilt. (all people will be brothers, where your holy spirit flies - from the Ode to Joy) I believe John Lennon's Imagine is inspired by this work.

Ray
Moses Botbol
Posts: 5935
Joined: Wed Aug 30, 2006 7:38 am
Location: Boston, USA

Re: Beethoven

Post by Moses Botbol »

I like to play Beethoven on the piano. Nice melody without going into too crazy of difficult chords like Chopin.
Welsh Corgis | F1 |British Cars
User avatar
Roy Hersh
Site Admin
Posts: 21433
Joined: Thu Jul 28, 2005 1:27 am
Location: Porto, PT
Contact:

Re: Beethoven

Post by Roy Hersh »

Beethoven is my favorite of all composers and classical pianists. The 9th Symphony my all-time favorite piece of music bar none. I have seen this performed at the Kennedy Center on New Years eve 1994, a great black tie event replete with some amazing waltzes in the grand foyer afterwards. Also in Denver at their symphony hall 1989, Lincoln Center in NYC 1987, and Seattle's Benaroya Hall in the late 1990s. It is always a most welcome event and I can never see this enough. The inspiration for my falling in love with this particular score: the movie, A Clockwork Orange ... in a HS film class (1974).
Ambition driven by passion, rather than money, is as strong an elixir as is Port. http://www.fortheloveofport.com
Ray Barnes
Posts: 767
Joined: Thu Nov 13, 2008 12:43 am
Location: Surrey, British Columbia, Canada

Re: Beethoven

Post by Ray Barnes »

The 9th holds a special place in my heart as well Roy. Perhaps it is fair to say the andante of the slow movement and the Benedictus of the Missa Solemnis give the impression of what the conductor Wilhelm Furtwangler called having one foot in the Beyond. It has been speculated that the work follows the following program:

1st movement - Beethoven asks what is the meaning of life.
2nd mvmt - He struggles and fails to find an answer.
3rd mvmt - He prays for assistance.
Finale - The prayer is answered.

Ray
User avatar
Otto Nieminen
Posts: 366
Joined: Tue Aug 16, 2005 2:48 am
Location: Helsinki, Finland
Contact:

Re: Beethoven

Post by Otto Nieminen »

Thank you Ray. It took me a long time to get into Beethoven despite classical music being the greatest passion of my life (easily surpassing wine for me), but for some reason I always found Beethoven to be a pompous ass more interested in making drama than music. But in the past year or so I have begun to see Beethoven's genius. Why? The late string quartets and piano sonatas proved that his music can be sublime as well - but for me they require a performance that doesn't emphasize the fire inherent in the music or it becomes too much for me.

I bought a set of of the late sonatas by the legendary pianist Solomon (Cutner was his last name, but he always went by his first name only) who started on a great, great set of Beethoven sonatas in the early '50s yet had to quit playing because of a stroke before he managed to record them all. His slow movement of the Hammerklavier sonata is maybe the reason why I have started to consider Beethoven as a genius. Some have criticized Solomon's playing as being too cold, but I find it elegant instead.

Another group who is sometimes considered too cold is the Italian String Quartet whose polished account of the late String Quartets I have found sublime. Once again the slow movements of these quartets are sublime. And these late works have worked as a gateway to Beethoven's earlier, less introspective works which I am slowly starting to appreciate. So thank you for your post!

BTW, if anyone other than me is into "historical" recordings, on YouTube there is a very good performance of the slow movement of the 15th Quartet, played by the legendary Budapest String Qt. in 1945: Part I of movement III and Part II of mvt. III.

-Otto
Ray Barnes
Posts: 767
Joined: Thu Nov 13, 2008 12:43 am
Location: Surrey, British Columbia, Canada

Re: Beethoven

Post by Ray Barnes »

This is my second attempt to respond to Otto. I thank you too. The Italian Quartet is a marvellous ensemble, they play these inspired scores with great refinement and sensitivity.

The late quartets are in my view Beethoven's most noble works and take a place in the very highest rung of great music alongside Bach's Art of Fugue, B Minor Mass, and as a whole the Sacred Cantatas, and very few other works. Each of these works seems to transport the listener into another world. The first movement of the Op. 131 Quartet in C sharp minor in my view is a very convincing portrait of what may be described as Purgatory, and may well be the composer's autobiography. This piece speaks of a sadness and loneliness brought on by physical affliction, yet also of spiritual resolve through finding meaning and strength through it. This is the work of a real genius whose soul is on display. The Heilige Dankgesang (Holy Song of Thanksgiving) of Op. 132 speaks of spiritual gratitude and a real appreciation of being alive that is not at all compromised by piety or excess of gesture. The Op. 133 Grosse Fuge's structure can hardly be compared to anything - except Bach. Glenn Gould believed this was the greatest work ever written - and he may well have a good point.

These quartets are imperishable - and draw listeners closer to that very same aspect of ourselves.

Ray
User avatar
Otto Nieminen
Posts: 366
Joined: Tue Aug 16, 2005 2:48 am
Location: Helsinki, Finland
Contact:

Re: Beethoven

Post by Otto Nieminen »

Ray Barnes wrote:The late quartets are in my view Beethoven's most noble works and take a place in the very highest rung of great music alongside Bach's Art of Fugue, B Minor Mass, and as a whole the Sacred Cantatas, and very few other works. [...] The Op. 133 Grosse Fuge's structure can hardly be compared to anything - except Bach. Glenn Gould believed this was the greatest work ever written - and he may well have a good point.
Hello Ray,

For my part, the B minor mass must be taken out - for some reason, that is one of Bach's works that I just do not enjoy though Bach usually is my favourite. But the Kunst der Fugue, Sacred Cantatas (he also had some lovely secular ones - are you not a fan?), GOLDBERG VARIATIONS and the two sets of the WTC are amongst my favourite compositions (no points if you guess which I am particularly fond of at the moment...). As a keen amateur flautist, I also love Bach's flute sonatas, though I don't think objectively they rank among his best masterpieces. (I can't think of another composer who has so many masterpieces that one can write a sentence like the previous one...)

I am a bit surprised that GG said that about the Grosse Fuge, because I was under the impression that Beethoven had a hard time with polyphony - and to me that is the least successful of the late string works. But de gustibus and all that applies of course.

Would my guess be correct that you also appreciate Schubert's String Quintet?

-Otto
Ray Barnes
Posts: 767
Joined: Thu Nov 13, 2008 12:43 am
Location: Surrey, British Columbia, Canada

Re: Beethoven

Post by Ray Barnes »

Yes Otto you would be absolutely correct about the String Quintet. Not to also mention the two String Trios, which I think are great masterpieces. I very much also admire the Bach keyboard works and the flute sonatas - pretty much almost all of his output that I have heard, except some of the early keyboard Toccatas. I have not yet heard the Secular Cantatas but do have Peter Schreier's version of them and hope to give them a hearing early in the New Year.

For some reason, after hearing the over-familiar Christmas Carols performed in uninspired, indifferent fashion in supermarkets, malls, tv commercials, and who knows where else, this time of the year, right around December 24, I get a strange craving for Richard Strauss' Elektra - truly a lovely work for the holidays. :twisted:

Ray
Marco D.
Posts: 939
Joined: Thu Aug 04, 2005 10:04 am
Location: Milford, Connecticut, United States of America - USA

Re: Beethoven

Post by Marco D. »

Although I am not as much of an expert in classical music, I found Beethoven hard to grasp. When I was first learning about classical music, I gravitated to the "easier to appreciate" works of Mozart. Over time, however, I found myself tiring of Mozart. I went back to listening to the longer-line melodies of Beethoven and started "to get it".

Beethoven... hard to get into (for me), but hard to get tired of.
Marco DeFreitas Connecticut, USA
Ray Barnes
Posts: 767
Joined: Thu Nov 13, 2008 12:43 am
Location: Surrey, British Columbia, Canada

Re: Beethoven

Post by Ray Barnes »

The only music I find a really tough nut to crack is the 12-tone serialist works - but for some reason still like it, especially Webern.
User avatar
Otto Nieminen
Posts: 366
Joined: Tue Aug 16, 2005 2:48 am
Location: Helsinki, Finland
Contact:

Re: Beethoven

Post by Otto Nieminen »

Ray Barnes wrote:The only music I find a really tough nut to crack is the 12-tone serialist works - but for some reason still like it, especially Webern.
Webern is my favourite of them also. Profound stuff. But once one gets used to the idiom, new works aren't tough nuts to crack, though getting used to it can take time.
Ray Barnes
Posts: 767
Joined: Thu Nov 13, 2008 12:43 am
Location: Surrey, British Columbia, Canada

Re: Beethoven

Post by Ray Barnes »

I loved what Pierre Boulez said about Webern in that amazing complete anthology of his complete works released to commemorate the conductor's (I think) 75th birthday - after you have heard a bit of Webern and acquired a taste for it, it is difficult for a time to want to listen to anything else.

Someday in a fit of sociopathic rage, I plan to break into a department store's control room, turn off the accursed musak/homogenized music, and fire up Webern's Symphony Opus 21. During this performance, the doors will also be locked, and any staff member or customer attempting to break a door will receive a 20,000 volt charge - because they need it. :evil: :evil:
User avatar
Otto Nieminen
Posts: 366
Joined: Tue Aug 16, 2005 2:48 am
Location: Helsinki, Finland
Contact:

Re: Beethoven

Post by Otto Nieminen »

Ray! You copycat! The Op.21 might just be my favourite Webern piece. For anyone willing to be converted listen to it here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q0aPdbSVpdE . I think his music might be as hard a crystal, but it is also as beautiful and clear.

Next you'll tell me you are a huge fan of Iberian, Franco-Flemish and English Renaissance Choral polyphony...

-Otto
Ray Barnes
Posts: 767
Joined: Thu Nov 13, 2008 12:43 am
Location: Surrey, British Columbia, Canada

Re: Beethoven

Post by Ray Barnes »

Otto I can't say that I have explored those areas of the history of music yet, but would undoubtedly enjoy them with repeated listening.

In the Webern Op. 21 I find, if I have listened to it correctly, that he even included an exposition repeat of sorts, as a kind of hand waving gesture to tradition. Yet it does not at all diminish the concentration and extreme emotional range of this score in any way.

Lately I've been playing a lot of Mahler - especially his 5th Symphony.

Ray
User avatar
Otto Nieminen
Posts: 366
Joined: Tue Aug 16, 2005 2:48 am
Location: Helsinki, Finland
Contact:

Re: Beethoven

Post by Otto Nieminen »

Ray Barnes wrote:In the Webern Op. 21 I find, if I have listened to it correctly, that he even included an exposition repeat of sorts, as a kind of hand waving gesture to tradition. Yet it does not at all diminish the concentration and extreme emotional range of this score in any way.
Ray, you might be right about an exposition repeat. I am sadly not as versed in music theory as I would like to be, but I think the term is used more with the classical sonata form, so I can't really say if there is a proper exposition repeat or is it e.g. just a structure arising from the inherent limitations of the 12 tone row or something else entirely. But when you pointed it out, it really does seem like there is something like that going on.

But I think Webern was very much aware of musical traditions: he admits being influenced by Heinrich Isaac, the great Renaissance composer on whom he wrote his thesis, and I think the Renaissance polyphonists are strongly present e.g. in his love of palindromic structures. Also the sparse structures of Webern's work remind me of the way that Renaissance polyphonists might use only four voices to create a universe that sounds like an infinity of voices. Also his use of Klangfarbenmelodie is almost like one more voice in a counterpoint. It is to my ears a case of 1+1=infinity. I think his greatest genius is in making such sparse and economical textures seem so rich.

So Webern wasn't IMO one who burned all the bridges to traditional music, but rather he took music to its logical next step after the wild harmonies and chromaticisms of Wagner (esp. Tristan und Isolde) and Mahler. And in addition to these influences he added a Renaissance purity of polyphony. It might sound very "new" even to 21st ears, but it is firmly rooted in history.
Ray Barnes
Posts: 767
Joined: Thu Nov 13, 2008 12:43 am
Location: Surrey, British Columbia, Canada

Re: Beethoven

Post by Ray Barnes »

I would completely agree you - there is in Webern's right an absolute uncompromising purity of expression, where each note is given the maximum value. In involuntarily small doses I love it, but it isn't everyone's cup of tea. Regarding the feeling of infinity from modest means, I get the same feeling from the opening bars of Book 1 of Bach's WTC and the Cello Suites. Webern made a fine arrangement, if my memory is correct, of Bach's Ricerare a 4 Voci, its taste is impeccable.

Webern's music has one other great feature, in spite of the fact i am far from musically literate - the printed scores are visually very appealing too, so called Augenmusik.

Ray
Post Reply