Hot Topic: % of Alcohol by Volume in table wine

[Roy Hersh]

When I was getting into wine, besides fortified wine or possibly Zinfandel which was going through a "phase" of 15-17% abv, the vast majority of table wines from Italy, France and even CA were in the 11%-13% range. Today almost across the board it is 13-15% for table wines with some stretching into the 16% rarified territory.

These are out of balance and more than anything, really are not food friendly wines ... which in my opinion, is the essential quality of any great wine that I choose to drink. Wine that can not pair well with food is like a child that can not get along with anybody.

I fear that we're in the 14% average range for good and this is not a trend that bodes well. Not with anti-alcohol interests at their all time most vigilant. Not when food and wine pairing has become an art form.

So what is the answer?

[David Spriggs]

So what is the answer?

Skip the table wine and just drink Port!

[Glenn E.]

So what is the answer?

Skip the table wine and just drink Port!

I'll drink to that!

[Frederick Blais]

Like with everything man is doing, it always tries to reach extreme limits. This was true with wine : "who can make the most extremely alcoholic and concentrated wine"....

Alcohol does not pair well with food and does limit the complexity expression of the bouquet. You'll see that the most complex noses on wine, especially when young are those low alcoholic wine from northern region of Europe countries. Above 14%, we are getting into a dangerous territory in my opinion.

There are always some exceptionalities to all rulse of course. Last night I was enjoying some wines from the unique Henri Bonneau. His Reserve Spéciale 1998 was labeled with 16% of alcohol and might contain even more. This is crazy how well balance that wine was and so much food pairing it was! Simply because it was light and elegant and not those beast your spoon could stay still in the glass :)

Interesting enough, his regular Chateau Neuf du Pape 2001 was really tasting like fresh elegant ruby Port. He did push maturity to its limit and made something good out of it!

[Brian C.]

I did run across this link: http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/jour ... 1&SRETRY=0

Of interest was this passage:

Method: Estimates of wine-type mean %ABV are calculated using brand-level sales and %ABV from one state and are extrapolated to other states and to the US using wine-type sales.

Results: The mean %ABV is found to vary substantially over time and across states, with US means ranging from 16.2% in 1962 to a low of 10.5% in 1991. By 2002, the US mean %ABV had risen to nearly 11.5%. Application of %ABV estimates to the per capita consumption of wine indicated significant differences from previous estimates with lower alcohol intake from wine found for all years after 1980 and 6 year-to-year changes in opposite directions.

Are there some wine producers, varieties, or regions that tend to have lower ABV's than others? And what causes a higher ABV in wine?

[Eric Ifune]

I've discussed this before on other websites. To me, its not the alcohol that is the problem. High alcohol in itself does not make wine hot, flabby, what have you. I always use the example of fino sherry. This is 16-18% alcohol by volume. Still, it is one of the most refreshing wines there is. Yes it is fortified, but it is used like a table wine and has hefty alcohol. So, what people complain about is not the alcohol content. It could be acidity, extract, or a multitude of other components or lack thereof. To me, the complaint shouldn't be about alcohol levels, but a complaint against particular wine styles; typically a high extract, low acidity variety.

[Roy Hersh]

Eric,

So what you're really saying is that a wine should be in balance, right?

[Carlos Rodriguez]

It also has happened in Spain. Some years ago, the wines, usually had 12-12.5%. Whereas now, the new generation of wines each time have more alcohol (14-15.5). Now it is difficult to find wines with 12-12.5% while in Rioja they always had this volume. As I drink wine regularly in the meals, I would like to return to the graduation of 12-13%, it agree better with me.

[Eric Ifune]

Yes, balance is very important.
But balance does have a subjective component; as does wine styles.
The most complaints I've heard is about high alcohol, high extract, low acid wines. I think it is not the alcohol that people dislike, but the sheer amount of extract which can be overwhelming. But they point to the alcohol levels since that is what is on the label. The dry extract is usually not indicated. That is why I use the fino Sherry example. It is high alcohol, but also high acid and low to moderate extract. The result is refreshment rather than exhaustion.

[Andy Velebil]

I've never been a fan of this rush to make and buy what people have described as "Parkerized" wines, those with high alcohol's and over extracted. Pinot Noir is the classic example of this here in California. When PN reaches 16.5% abv, then something is terribly wrong. I've not had one that wasn't just over the top sweet, totally out of balanced, and like drinking a sugared up fruit drink. Eric is right, they tend to lack the acidity needed to balance it all out. The past few years I've had some Ridge Zin's from the 1970's that were in the 15-16% abv range and they were great. But they also had lots of acidity to balance out that fruit as they aged. So while I disagree with Roy that they are not food friendly wines, as they can be, the problem is finding a bottle that is balanced.

As for coming down in abv levels, they already are. I've had this discussion with a number of wine makers here in Cali (who shall remain nameless) and told flat out that the ripe jammy wines were made so they could get great scores from one prominant reviewer...I'll let you guess who But I've also been recently told that is no longer the case and the alcohol level's will, and already have, started to drop. People have finally figured out that case of $100/bottle Pinot Noir they bought tastes horrible after several years of storage when the fruit subsides and all that is left is massive alcohol and nothing to balance it out.

My biggest issue is its hard to enjoy a bottle between two people at dinner and not get hammered by the end with these high alcohol wines. I much prefer lower alcohol wines as I can drink more and enjoy it without getting drunk at dinner.

[Moses Botbol]

As I drink wine regularly in the meals, I would like to return to the graduation of 12-13%, it agree better with me.

It's hard to find wines that people are talking about at 12-13%. I think when it comes to alcohol levels, the port crowd are going to agree the higher levels for dry wines are not that welcome (perhaps their traditional outlook on wine). Certainly, there are wines that are traditionally higher in alcohol like Rhone's, but we expect that.

Seems like higher alcohol is masking technique to make more out of less.

[Carlos Rodriguez]

Here as well is hard to find low % wines. And none of the wine maker or press writers, talk about wines with low alcohol %. Any way, average wine quality as rise a lot in Spain in last years (10-15). This is good even if we have lost some wines that were great to eat with. This is because international market prefer this more alcoholic wines, all wine exports as grown a lot with this new kind of wine.

[Roy Hersh]

Andy wrote:

When PN reaches 16.5% abv, then something is terribly wrong.

Now that was pretty darn funny, I must admit.
Actually when PN reaches about 14.5% things start going downhill. Great Burgundy used to be between 11-13% so 14.5% is ugly and 16.5% is just plain ridiculous. What has taken place since "Sideways" with PN is absolutely stupid. Then again, from KB, Loring, AP Vin, Kutch etc. and so many others that you know well, so far, they've made a living on high octane, overly ripe PN, that could double as Syrah in most bottles. The old school producers of PN like Rochioli, Joseph Swan, Hanzell, Williams Selyem etc. almost always have been under 14%. Even today's Burgs which are higher than in the past still keep it close to 13% from what I've seen (in my own cellar).

The past few years I've had some Ridge Zin's from the 1970's that were in the 15-16% abv range and they were great. But they also had lots of acidity to balance out that fruit as they aged. So while I disagree with Roy that they are not food friendly wines, as they can be, the problem is finding a bottle that is balanced.

Andy, with all due respect, you are drinking these high alc. Zins, 30+ years later when fully mature. You are therefore comparing apples to chairs. Of course they are food friendly now, if/when they still have acidity and fruit. However, if you look closely, you'll see some of those old Ridge Zins DID top out at 17% as there was no financial "penalty" for that, back then like there is now. Maybe the biggest name in "cult" Zins, TURLEY ... was not happy unless the ripeness allowed for 16-17% Zins year in and year out, and people paid through the teeth for them throughout the 1990s. Try to eat a normal meal with one of those, when young! To the point, you won't find 15%-17% abv young wines from anywhere that are really inviting with food, unless you are talking about BBQ ribs or spicy Asian food. :wall:

For every winery with alcohol levels coming down, there is still one if not two, where they are increasing. You are just focusing on CA wines and need to look beyond your borders. ; )



Moses,

While you entire post was spot on, this line was just perfect:

"Seems like higher alcohol is masking technique to make more out of less."

I am not sure if the high alc. is the intent, my own belief is that the grapes are left too long and over ripen to get every last degree of RS into the grapes. It makes no sense, but as Andy mentioned, some critics love Australian Shiraz and these high octane, fruit bombs. Whereas, many others (me included) prefer to enjoy wine with food and I don't care how much fun it is to sip a bottle of 1998 Dead Arm, but I sure as heck don't want to drink it with almost any food that I'd eat on a regular basis. There are still plenty of wines in the 13% range and France and even Italy have plenty of 'em.



Carlos wrote:

And none of the wine maker or press writers, talk about wines with low alcohol %.

Carlos,

Actually, if you ever read Decanter Magazine, there are a number of writers who are constantly talking about the good old days when Claret and other wines were 2-4% lower in abv and have been sending that message for many years. Additionally, from Oz Clarke to Jancis Robinson to Clive Coates, there are some outstanding writers who often lobby for lower alcohol wines. Seemingly it is by far more prevalent in the British wine press, but they are clearly onto something that the wine press here in the USA is missing.

As for Spain and Portugal, older Riojas used to be much lower in alc. then they seem to be today. Priorats are wines I love, but you really have to be careful what to drink them with and I love 'em. Like Douro wines, I can't remember the last time I saw one under 14%, but some are in balance with enough acidity (the key in my book) to keep the fruit seemingly in check. Of course, they are designed to eat with the very hearty fare that is served by the Duriense, but that is another story.

Fun topic.

[Carlos Rodriguez]

Roy,
Pardon for not having been concrete, I was talking about spanish wines and writers. Of course they do it when they talk about foreingners wines (like french, german, austian white wines). But not when they do it in spanish ones, even if they still some good ones. It's also dificult to read in spanish wine magazines about foreing wines, it is a pity.

[Roy Hersh]

Thanks for that clarification. Much appreciated Carlos!

[Brian C.]

Has anyone viewed this video yet?

http://www.vimeo.com/3519159

[Andy Velebil]

Has anyone viewed this video yet?

http://www.vimeo.com/3519159

Brian,
Great video, thanks for the link. I had not seen that one yet and it does raise some very good points. I have to head off to work, but will come back to this one for sure.

[Roy Hersh]

Hi Brian,

I finally found the 26 minutes to sit in front of a computer and watch this entire video.

Although I find the content solid, the participants knowledgeable and the subject matter exactly on par with our discussion ... I find it truly one sided and Tina should have made a greater effort to capture a few minutes of Parker's time, even by phone if necessary and get his side of this ... or James Laube.

I loved Dunn's quote at the end about the fact that in the good old days, "herbaceousness" used to be considered a complimentary descriptor for CA Cab. Ah yes, I am certainly old enough to remember those days.

My first visit took me many miles to get me to Napa in 1982, when it was a very different area and era of course. The vines grafted onto AXR1 rootstock back during that period until Phylloxera destroyed most of the Valley in the mid-1990s, have since been replanted. Terroir is now understood as is clonal selection, a better idea of the proper grape vs. heat summation days and other sundry topics that have become en vogue over the years such as reverse osmosis and micro-oxygenation.

But during those simple times, points were not what sold wines. Nor were the CA Cabs and PNs over-ripe ooze monsters made to satisfy any critic. The vast majority of imports, not to mention domestic wines in general, were MUCH lower in alcohol pre-1990s, with a few noted exceptions ... but they were just that. The rule was BALANCE, flavor and structure ... whether an easy to drink $5-10 bottle or a very expensive $35 bottle of Cabernet Sauvignon.

[Brian C.]

Thanks for the reply, Roy. I always enjoy reading what you have to say. I had wished she done better at getting the other side of the story, also.

I'm not too big on the high alcohol content wines I have tried (and I don't have a big sample size to go on, keep in mind). I had a zin not too long ago, and the taste of alcohol and fruit was just too much. And I wasn't too keen on this pinot from Central CA that tasted like something else entirely different than pinot. That one I tasted blind against an Oregon pinot, and it wasn't even close. Maybe there are high alcohol fruit bombs I might like, but I'm not holding my breath, and I'm not willing to spend a fortune to find them.

Often this issue is moot as I don't find too many California varieties that I enjoy as much, and I don't find too many Bordeaux that I enjoy, either. Whether it's Parkerization or whether it's just that I don't like the grapes in general, I can't always be so sure of. I'm at a point in my life where I'm constantly in search of something new to try, and making sure I don't fall into a comfort zone of some kind. Some of the forays are fruitless (or should I say too fruit forward?). One of my big discoveries (aside from the Portugese table wines, of course) was Movia Lunar from Slovenia, which features the ribolla gialla grape. And sadly, I can't get it here. I had it in Vegas at Mario Batali's Enoteca (at the Venetian). People miss out on stuff like that, as distributors won't carry it. Why would they want to take a risk on such an obscure bottle when there are other proven money makers for them to distribute?

It is this mindset of wanting to keep branching out that bears out my frustration with these ratings and the point chasing that goes on. If wine is truly to become Parkerized (or otherwise homogenized), then my interest in wine will drop accordingly. I am fine with my selections not being covered, as long as they are available. That means more stuff for me at lower prices when they are available, and that can't be so bad. However, if too many producers are interested in points and the money that comes with them, then it's going to be harder for someone like me to stay interested, as that will be another reason why I won't find stuff as easily. I think the market is ripe for someone to go against this grain that has formed over the last 20 years. It would be hard to do, but I would think that there is a niche out there.

[Roy Hersh]

Don't despair my friend. There is still a very solid core of passionate winemakers with integrity and pride in what they are putting in bottle. They do so, for the love of grape. It is not about point scores, nor about the money ... it is making the best wine they possibly can bottle. I believe Karen MacNeil touched upon this similar breed, in one of her segments of the tape, although broached differently, the sentiment similar enough.

There will always be those that are attracted to winemaking for the wrong reasons, often times to feed ego. Just as there are chefs who are seemingly "in it" to obtain celebrity. Stars in the newspaper -- their driving force; not the love for their ingredients and the creative presentations that please their clientele.

Explore the fine world of wine and with an open mind you will find vast quantities of reasonably priced and well made wines from all over the world. I have explored widely with wine and have some crazy wines in my cellar, from Romanian Cabernet, to Uruguayan Late Harvest Tannat and many inbetween. It is always fun and keeps things from growing stagnant or dumbing the palate by feasting on the same grapes and appellations over and over. I hope to share a bottle with you some day Brian!