Can high alcohol wines show balance?

[Roy Hersh]

I think this is a fine topic for discussion.

Here is an opening salvo by Decanter: http://www.decanter.com/news/news.php?id=295809

Your thoughts on the question at hand?

[Brian C.]

To answer the question, yes, it is possible, but pretty elusive. I tried an Aussie Cotes du Rhone imitation, and it tasted nothing like a Cotes du Rhone. It had about 14.5% ABV, and it was so syrupy. I looked at it as an education, so nothing lost there. I always hear that high ABV needs fruit to compensate. Whenever I hear "fruit-forward," I run. Another example was a Russian River PN that had over 14% ABV. It was so over the top, for lack of a better description. I haven't had tons of PNs, but it seems like going over 13.5% is not such a good idea, in my limited experience. Even Malbecs over 14% seem to be a bit odd to me. Always more potential to be out of whack, it seems. It's either too fruit forward, or it's really hot. I know there are some wines that seemingly require higher ABVs, though I'm not quite so educated as to why. I have peered at threads in erobertparker.com to try to better understand this issue of high ABV, but most of those threads become heated arguments where I can't glean much either way. One even had RP telling the naysayers to go drink Riesling (gee, thanks, I get one grape, you get the other 2,999). It doesn't seem to be a debate worth dying for, though a number of segments of wine seem to have this phenomenon of the 14% and up ABVs crowding out the under 14% wines. It's even starting to happen more in Spain.

[Andy Velebil]

Always an interesting topic and one I'll dive into first I guess.

Yes you can make good wines above 14% ABV. But IMO it's the rare exeption that a wine with higher alcohol survives long term cellaring. I've had old Ridge Zin's from the 1970's with high (16'ish range) ABV's that still drank very well just a couple years ago. But this producer is known for their long lived wines. And I've had some very expensive recent California Cab vintages that have high ABV's and only a few years later people have found out they don't age well at all.

So I think it really depends on a specific producer and production techniques. But in my experience, most super high alcohol wines don't age well.

As a side, I recently enjoyed an older bottle that was listed at 13% ABV. It was great to enjoy a couple glasses without getting tipsy. yet I had one glass of a listed 16.7% ABV wine and I was already feeling it. If I had the choice I'd take the lower alcohol one any day. (of course this doesn't apply to fortified wines...in that case bring it on )

[Brian C.]

I haven't had much luck with California zins, but then my experience is limited. I seem to have much better luck with an Italian primitivo,where the ABV is usually lower.

[Andy Velebil]

Brian,
Looks like we were posting at about the same time. I agree about Pinot, it is not supposed to be a high alcohol wine. I have this argument a lot with Cali folk who think Pinot should be this massively extracted, high alcohol, wine. Well, all those $100+ Kosta Brown Pinot's and the like that people thought would last for decades are all falling apart and becoming undrinkable heat bombs....can't say I didn't warn them that was going to happen years ago.

But if we look at Douro table wines, most post 2000's tend to be in the 13.5-14.5% range. Even the ones at 14.5% seem to carry it very well and age nicely. I suspect it's due to the massive stress the vines go through searching for water, the minerality they achieve in the process, and the higher acidity typically present. Not to mention the varietals have such good aging characteristics to begin with. I guess one can say it's all in the natural balance.

[Brian C.]

I would be very interested in understanding when it is right for a wine to have over 14% ABV, and why that would be so. I gather that there are circumstances, but I have searched in vain for the full accounting as to the when and why of it being right. Does it have to do with climate and terroir? I understand that there are other special situations, like Amarone. Also, I have read that Barolo requires a minimum ABV of 13%.

[Andy Velebil]

Brian,
I remember when most Cali wines had a hard time getting to 24 brix (about 12% ABV) at harvest time. Then along came new types of vine clones, grafting, etc. and all of a sudden getting to 30-31 brix (15-16%) was easy. So a lot come from newer vine strains, clones, etc. The problem now arising is wineries have discovered they may drink well young but they generally age like a Mac truck driving off a cliff. That's why you're now starting to see lower alcohol content in many Cali wines in the current releases. It's something I've discussed at length with friends who work at some Cali wineries and all are saying the age of the super high ABV wines is starting to wain and there is now a slow trend back toward lower ABV wines. Sadly we'll probably never get back to what they were, but I wouldn't be surprised to see it at least get close.

[Eric Ifune]

Some wines tend not to show well with high EtOH, but some almost need it. I agree Pinot Noir can seem out of balance, but Chateauneuf du Pape almost needs it. Fino Sherry is light and delicate, but it's pushing 16-17% many times.

[Brian C.]

I have heard that said about CdP before. I'm curious as to what makes it "need" a higher ABV. If I drank a 13% and a 15%, what would make the 15% intrinsically better?

One other thing I wonder is how much of the high ABV market is driven by a few influential critics. I have heard it said that an extra Parker point can be worth millions to a producer, thereby giving a producer a real incentive to create a wine that suits such a palate. Is that true?

[Glenn E.]

age like a Mac truck driving off a cliff.

LOL... great description!