Provenance question- steal of a price on Port on shelf 4 years or so

[Tom Reddick]

Morning all,

Great forum- Roy, thanks for letting me know about it. TN for 2007 Noval to follow this evening after I have had another day to evaluate the wine (so far very happy!)

Tasting the Noval reminded me of a local store that has some 2003 Noval Nacional. My cost after discount would be about $500 per- so a pretty good deal in the grand scheme of things (if a far cry from the $300ish for the 1994 at release!)

Here is the issue- bottles have been standing on the shelf since release. Very good store tempwise- upper 60s and sometimes low 70s in the heat of the summer. Bottles well protected against direct strong light exposure.

If it were Bordeaux or Burgundy- I would not even think about it, but how about for Port? There certainly seems a sentiment out there that Port is resilient- and these bottles have never been exposed to dangerous temperatures (I know the store that well- confident on this point.)

What say you all?

[Glenn E.]

Tough call, Tom. Standing upright for 4 years shouldn't have completely dried out the corks - yet - but it probably also hasn't been good for them. Even though the temperature in the store is reasonable from what you've said, I'd be willing to bet that the humidity is not. So those corks haven't had much help.

For a lesser Port I'd probably shrug it off or perhaps ask for a small discount, but for a $500 bottle of Nacional ... that's a pricey risk to take.

[Tom Reddick]

Hi Glenn,

Appreciate your feedback. I am not worried about the corks but about whether Port can have subtle heat damage effects to the degree of Burgundy if left out at 68-70 degrees for 3-4 years. On the issue of temperature, in your experience should I be concerned?

FWIW- I know the retailer well and if I bought, I would open one soon just to get a baseline for future cellaring plans. So if I noted any heat damage I would be able to return them without issue. I just want to figure my odds before doing that since it is definitely "calling in a favor" to make a return like that if it were necessary.

[Glenn E.]

Oh, in that case you should be fine. It is best to store Port at a constant 55 degrees, but it is hardy enough to withstand higher temperatures as long as the temperature remains relatively constant. Constant heating and cooling is bad even if within an otherwise tolerable temperature range, but a constant 68-70 degrees should be okay. The only side effect is that the Port might age every so slightly faster, but since in your case it has only been 4 years the effects - if any - probably wouldn't even be noticeable. The 2003 Noval Nacional is most likely a 100-year Port... 4 years at 70 degrees might have aged it 10 of those years. (Just a hypothetical number.)

Personally I would be more worried about oxidation caused by a dry cork, but if you're not worried about that then I really don't think you have any cause for concern.

[Andy Velebil]

Here's my While Port often does better when exposed to various temperature swings, and even more so with young VP, it's the long term effect that I'd be worried about. Even if you opened one this week to check it may not show any outward signs of issues, yet 20-30 years from now it may. Like any wine heat exposure does more damage over the long haul than the short haul.

This is not a cheap Port and personally I'd want it to have been well cared for before I bought it. So for me personally, I would most likely pass on getting it. My suggestion to you is if you wouldn't buy a dry wine if it was stored in such conditions, then you probably shouldn't buy a Port if it was stored in the same conditions. Just my

And to the forum, we're glad to have you with us and I hope this is the first of many posts from you.

[Eric Menchen]

I'm going to bet that humidity wasn't a problem if this was in Houston. But that temperature is concerning.

[Tom Reddick]

Thanks guys,

I have long been aware of the cork debate in terms of standing/sitting bottles- so I respect there is contention there. For my part, I rely on the fact local humidity is pretty high ergo I do not worry. Tried out the experiment referenced in Kramer's book Making Sense of Wine once, and got the same results. Standing bottles actually had corks harder to remove after a few years.

On to the wine, thanks for the feedback all. I will talk to my friend a bit more about when they got the bottles, the thermostat in the store etc., but likely going to pass at this point. Given the longevity of the wine, I am not worried about 30+ years from now, but still if it is likely to be badly affected then- surely it will show some impact now, and for this kind of money...

Will focus instead on 2007 :) Loving the Noval so far (24 hours after opening and it just gets better and better...)

[Roy Hersh]

Tom,

I am sorry that it has taken me awhile to respond as I've not been on the Forum much in the past 72 hours as I'm trying to finish off the upcoming newsletter so I can get it launched. At 90+ pages already, it is a long one and took a ton of time.

As to the provenance you've mentioned. The answer for me would be when you are planning to drink the bottle. If in the next 20 years, then I'd have no hesitance in doing so. But if this was going to be for 25-40 years from now, I'd pass too. It sounds like the temp swing is fairly modest and as long as it remains at the temps you mentioned and never above 75 degrees, I think your risk is somewhat mitigated over the first two decades. The corks won't dry out that fast, however, obviously this is not what you'd typically want to buy.

I am very pleased that after all these years you've come to join us and it is truly a pleasure having someone of your great character here with us. Maybe you could post an intro in the first thread (for intros) in our PORT BASICS Forum. Everyone would have a chance to welcome you and learn a little bit more about you too. As you'll find, this is about as friendly as any wine Forum gets. None of the testosterone, never mean-spiritidness and very light moderation too. The antithesis of what you and I are used to from our previous experience.

Looking forward to your Noval 2007 posting after a couple more days. By day four, I don't think you'll find any further positive changes. But enjoy it while it lasts. The bottle I had last month was superb and I'm glad to hear you are enjoying it as well.

Best regards,

Roy

[Moses Botbol]

Seems like an expensive to bottle to open one just for estimating. I have a case of 1980 Ferreira that was never laid on its side. 60% of the bottles are fine; the other 40% are differing grades of tawny. No need for the cork screw on this case. Thankfully, Ferreira used wax capsules.

Like Andy V mentions I would pass on them too. Does the store have any in storage? What about your local distributor? Is there any Nacional left in the warehouse? If it was something under $70, I would take a chance. The winters are the worst time for indoors storage at liquor store.

[Derek T.]

Tom,

Welcome to

I'm in the UK so am not too familiar with US prices but from a quick look on wine searcher it seems you would be getting these bottles at around $200 below market price - even lower if your $500 price includes tax?

At that price I think these are worth the (minimal) risk you and others describe above, especially as it seems from your comments that $500 per bottle is not beyond your means. However, if this question had been raised by someone with very limited funds looking for that once in a lifetime bottle of Nacional my advice would be to pass and look for something with even less risk of disappointment.

All that said, the regular Noval from the same vintage is a stunning wine which costs around 20% of the cost of its big brother with very little, if any, reduction in quality. I know where my money would go

Derek