A few questions about the production of madeira

[Andy Dremeaux]

I'm thinking about trying to brew and age a beer using production and aging methods similar to madeira but have a some questions about specifics that I haven't been able to find anywhere on the net.

1) What is the general flavor profile of the base wine, right before it is fortified? Vintage madeira is known to have great acidity and balancing sweetness; how does that come across in the original wine?

2) What spirit is usually used in the fortification process, and does the fortified wine undergo any additional treatment before the cask?

3) How big are the casks used, and are they always new oak or do they get reused? Are they pretreated in any way (toasted or similar)?

4) How much are the casks filled? Are they purged with CO2 or nitrogen or anything else before filling and/or before sealing?

5) What kind of temperatures do the casks sit at, how much humidity, and are these conditions sustained year round?

6) What kind of level of evaporation is expected after, say, 10 years?

7) Lastly, are they any other specifics I should know about in the production process that could have flown under my radar? Something like rotating the casks, or periodically opening them (not saying these happen, just random guesses), anything like that.

Thanks.
-andy

[Roy Hersh]

Hi Andy,

I am strapped for time as i leave for Portugal in a couple of days and must finish the newsletter before that. Our partner here in the Madeira forum is the place you should go to receive answers to all of your questions as I know that information exists on Dr. Peter Reutter's amazing Madeira website: www.madeirawineguide.com

I hope you'll come back and find all the info you are looking for.

[Andy Dremeaux]

Thanks for the link, Roy! For some reason I didn't think to look there.

After reading it, I've still got the following questions:

1) What is the general flavor profile of the base wine, right before it is fortified? Vintage madeira is known to have great acidity and balancing sweetness; how does that come across in the original wine?

2) Are the casks reused, and are they pre-treated in any way (toasting, etc)?

3) How much are the casks filled? Are they purged with CO2 or nitrogen or anything else before filling and/or before sealing?

4) After the estufa or canteiro, the wines are transferred to a more "normal" (temperature-wise) room, correct? What kind of temperature and humidity do they experience in that room?

5) Are the casks ever temporarily opened to allow new air to circulate?

If I do go ahead with this experiment, it will certainly be a huge time commitment, so I want to make sure I don't make any mistakes going into it.

[Eric Ifune]

Andy, I'm no expert but I'll give some of your questions a go.
I've not had any of the base wine, but am told it has screechy acidity, almost undrinkable amounts. It's not particularly platable. Not all Madeira is sweet. Sercial, for example can be quite dry; Fino Sherry dry, but still has high acidity.
The casks are reused. Some are ancient. They'll even break them down and rebuild them stave by stave so as to not have new wood. They probably were toasted initially, just to get the bend in them; but toast does not contribute to the flavors. Again, the producers prefer old, old casks.
The wine making is pretty traditional. The casks are not sparged before filling. Justinos probably has the most modern facility but even they are pretty low tech by California standards. The casks are filled then sealed by law. They are placed in canterio and left there. The slow oxidation is the key. They also have an "angels share" ala Cognac or Bourbon loss. Most commonly, the canterio is a warm, well aerated place. Different conditions do affect the wine. Barbieto has several canterio and the wines age differently. Ricardo Freitas, the owner and winemakers talks a little about this in discussing some of his recent releases on their website. The wines are generally left in canterio until bottling. Casks are porous to air so they continually undergo a slow oxygenation. I know before bottling, new casks must remain sealed by the government. When they are opened a sample is sent to them for testing. If it meets criteria, then it can be bottled and marketed.

[Peter Reutter]

As far as I know, I will try to answer the remaining questions:

1) What is the general flavor profile of the base wine, right before it is fortified? Vintage madeira is known to have great acidity and balancing sweetness; how does that come across in the original wine?
I was able to taste a Verdelho and a Boal wine a couple of years ago before it was going to be fortified. Of course both wines were rather bubbly since they were still fermenting, and especially the Boal was rather sweet.
The Verdelho tasted very close to the white Atlantis Verdelho, with the sweetness much lower. So the wine was rather "thin", like a light pinot grigio. I had expected more acidity, but may be that is going to change as the wine concentrates.
The Boal was very mainstream, a rather fruity wine, sweet, a little like a Moscato D'Asti.
Both wines were ordinary enough to not take any tasting notes. I remember that I was quite disappointed...

2) Are the casks reused, and are they pre-treated in any way (toasting, etc)?
Yes, the casks are reused, in fact the older the cask, the better it is. Juan Teixeira told me: “The secret to making a good Madeira wine is having good grapes to start with and then a good old cask - then you just sit and wait!” It is probably not that easy, but the casks are definitely re-used again and again.
Some of the new casks are probably being lightly toasted, at least that is what I saw people do at the MWC.

3) How much are the casks filled? Are they purged with CO2 or nitrogen or anything else before filling and/or before sealing?
My estimate would be that the casks are filled up to almost 100 percent, not like the Sherry casks where they try to leave a huge surface for the Flor to develop. What they want is SLOW oxydation, so it would not be a good idea to put to much oxygen in the casks. The evaporation will create enough room for oxydation anyway.

4) After the estufa or canteiro, the wines are transferred to a more "normal" (temperature-wise) room, correct? What kind of temperature and humidity do they experience in that room?
Judging from the casks at the Blandy wine lodge, Barbeitos and ABSL I would guess that they store the wines at ambient temperature and humidity, which would be the usual moderate to subtropical climate of Madeira island.

5) Are the casks ever temporarily opened to allow new air to circulate?
Not that I know of, just to take samples. The exchange of oxygen is probably enough just by the porous nature of the cask itself. Might be different with Demijohns, but usually you try to stop evolution of the wine by putting them into Demijohns, so why letting air in?

If I do go ahead with this experiment, it will certainly be a huge time commitment, so I want to make sure I don't make any mistakes going into it.
I volunteer for any tasting panel
Be aware that most small casks are covered on the inside with a kind of film, to prevent the contents of the wood from being transferred into the wine. The high ratio of cask surface to volume of the relatively small amount of wine would very likely end up with negative "woody" results. You could either use a rather large cask with a lot of beer, which would be quite expensive of course. Or may be there are other solutions like
a) a small cask but therefore a shorter period of time
b) a demijohn with wood chips in it and a non-airtight closure
c) only part of the beer in a small cask the rest in steel or glass then blend it together
d) have a new small cask (without film) "washed out" with a mixture of water and neutral brandy for a couple of weeks or months before letting it dry and then refill it with the beer
e) or do the d-procedure with a few bottles of 3YO or 5YO Madeira wine and water
hmmm... the possibilties are endless, so many different variables to take into account. Quite some mission you are embarking on here... You could do this as a full-time job you know?
Best regards
Peter

[Andy Dremeaux]

You could do this as a full-time job you know?

Haha I'd love to. My dream is to start a pre-prohibition style brewery in which barrel aging beer for 5+ years is not a special occasion, it's the norm. For a while, the world was like that--crazy to think, eh?

Thanks for the great info, all. I'm thinking if I do go ahead with this I'll probably try to fill the casks with some cheap madeira first to wear them in a little bit. The hardest part is certainly trying to figure out how I can get some decent temperatures and humidity for long term--I'd essentially need an anti-fridge. I must research if they make those and if they use an ungodly amount of power or not. Either that or after a summer in my buddy's attic I send them down to a friend in Florida

[Andy Dremeaux]

The hardest part is certainly trying to figure out how I can get some decent temperatures and humidity for long term--I'd essentially need an anti-fridge. I must research if they make those and if they use an ungodly amount of power or not.

So I'm thinking of buying a busted old top-loading restaurant fridge and installing a heat lamp in it; apparently even 120W in a 3x3x2' unit would heat it ~70 degrees above ambient, so if I build a basic circuit that only leaves it running 15 out of every 60 minutes I'd be in pretty good shape, and it would only take $50 a year to power. This is all coming together quite well.

[Roy Hersh]

Andy, you need to hang out with our FTLOP Forum friend, Peter Meek. I see some definitive similarities!

[Moses Botbol]

How about storing it a room that is frequented by people all day or is in normal heated living setting? As long as the cold swings are not that bad, I think you could have much leeway.

[Peter Reutter]

Yesterday I had the chance to speak to some producers at the anual Hamburg IVBAM wine tasting. They told me that they fill the casks to about 95 percent, to leave a little air in the cask to ensure good oxidation of the wine. Also most of the casks are quite heavily toasted, but of course we speak about casks of 600+ liters here.
Peter

[Andy Dremeaux]

Thanks for the info, Peter!