Underestimating alcohol content

[Roy Hersh]

This is becoming a hot topic in the past six months to a year. I do not share the belief that a high alcohol level always makes for a wine that is out of balance ... and I'm not even talking about fortified wines. I subscribe to the belief that each wine needs to be assessed on its own merits. Some high alc. wines can be beautiful and in synch while some low alc. wines can lack fruit and pizzaz. To me, there's no fixed rule that applies to all wine in terms of alcohol by volume.

http://www.drvino.com/2011/05/26/wine-l ... e-alcohol/

What do you think?

[Brian C.]

What percentage of wines have a deliberately underreported ABV% in order to escape the higher tax that comes when crossing the 14% threshold? I wish the article and the linked report delved into that a little more. It seems to be fixated on the idea that people like the higher ABV but don't know it, or are conscious of consuming too much alcohol with a given wine so might otherwise avoid the wine if it had a higher posted ABV.

Interestingly, the attached report singled out Portugal for one of the most positive growth trends for ABV.

I don't disagree with Roy's premise that ABV isn't the end all be all (though my previous posts might lead one to believe that I would). I do wonder how much of this trend has been caused by point chasing, though. Why would Esporao jack up the ABV in their basic label Monte Velho red, for instance? It was so nice and balanced before, and now it's just unbalanced glop. I don't dispute that there are wines out there that often need higher ABV (CdP and Ripasso Valpolicella, for example), but why mess with the wines that were already in balance?

[Eric Ifune]

Agree that alcohol levels are a canard.
I like the example of Fino Sherry. One of the most refreshing tipples and a perfect aperitif. Still, its 16-18% alcohol, even higher than what many consider excessive.

[Peter W. Meek]

I used to assume five standard "drinks" per bottle of wine. I have since learned that this was based on wines with about 10% ABV. There are 7 or even 8 in some modern table wines. Most restaurants that feature wine still pour 1/5 bottle per 'glass', so it is much like getting an over-generous shot in a mixed drink or something straight up like whiskey or tequila.

Take this into account when you are deciding how many drinks you have had in an evening. I figure two to bring my BA up to the risky area (conservative, at my weight) plus one per hour after that. At seven drinks per bottle they add up fast.

[Roy Hersh]

Peter,

Restaurant pours for table wines range between 4-6 and from my experience ITB, 5 is the average and it is very rare to see six nowadays. Four is for the more high end places. If you ask at your local favorite, I bet you it is either 4 or 5 glasses per bottle. Of course Port is a different story. But for table wines, the only ones I ever see that are under 12% abv these days are German Riesling and occasionally some whites from Austria. Otherwise, I can't say that I ever see under 12% from France/Italy/USA/Portugal/Spain etc.

I know that there is a strong crusade to lower alcohol levels in table wines. In fact, my good friend Bartholomew Broadbent is one of the people behind it. Try to make a 12% abv table wine in the Douro and I can assure you, the wine is not going to taste good. There are places it is just not possible. I think there are parts of some European countries (Burg. for example) where it is definitely possible to achieve phenolic ripeness and balance in the wines. But it is a rarity.

I understand the plight of those trying to lower the alcohol levels and don't suggest they are MADD but let's be real. OTOH, I also would like to see the gap of alcohol levels listed on labels being required to be far more accurate. To answer a question raised above, I certainly think lots of wineries cheat in order to avoid paying higher taxes. In fact, I bet that runs rampant in hundreds of wineries across America.

[Peter W. Meek]

I'm not wishing for smaller pours. Five/bottle is a nice sized serving for table wines. I'm just saying that if you DO get 5/btl pours, you cannot use the old rule of thumb that a drink is a drink: a glass of wine, a shot of liquor, a bottle/can of beer are all equal to a single unit of alcohol. By 7/btl, I meant IF they poured an amount with exactly one unit of alcohol. I'm not suggesting that they SHOULD pour such skimpy quantities, just saying that when you estimate your consumption, you should be counting about 1.4 or 1.5 drinks per glass.

Generous pours of liquor, high alcohol wines, and high alcohol beers (can't be labeled 'beer' in US over a certain point, hence malt-liquor) can cause a major under-estimation of that old "rule of thumb".

Of course, the modern tendency (which I share in) for greater body weights, may allow a slightly greater capacity for those first couple of drinks (but not the 1 unit/hour metabolic rate).

[Daniel R.]

But for table wines, the only ones I ever see that are under 12% abv these days are German Riesling and occasionally some whites from Austria. Otherwise, I can't say that I ever see under 12% from France/Italy/USA/Portugal/Spain etc.

Roy,

Vinho Verde is frequently below 12%, Additionally, in the last few years some producers have launched lower alcohol wines, specifically marketed as low alcohol wines. Some examples:

Fonte do Nico Light - 10% (Sado)
Allo Docil - 10,5% (Vinho Verde)
Soalheiro Dócil - 9% (Vinho Verde)

[Andy Velebil]

Here is the US there can be up to a 1.5% ABV variation listed on the label and based on some independent tests I've seen, some Cali producers have pushed that to the max or even beyond. The tax paid by a winery is also directly based on the ABV of the wine, so it can be in the best interest of the winery to understate what the ABV actually is.

The other is no secret and it has to do with scores from Robert Parker. He admits to liking big ripe wines and that is sadly how most producers are now making their wines. I love how some wine consumers try to deny this because within the Cali wine trade it's no secret this is what winery owners want so they can try and get a huge score from Parker. Granted, higher alcohol wines can also be attributed to different clonal selections used in younger vines, but as the article points out climatic changes haven't changed THAT much to affect overall ABV in the extremes we're seeing now. Someone explain to me how a vineyard of 50 year old vines that has never produced a wine with an ABV of 13.5-14% is now all of a sudden consistently producing wine with an ABV of 15-16% ABV? The only way to achieve such a rapid rise in alcohol content is with the help of humans.

For me I prefer lower alcohol wines (Port excluded, after all we're talking table wines here) simply for two main reasons. 1) I like to enjoy more than one or two glasses and not feel tipsy. The difference between 2 or 3 glasses with a 2% ABV difference can be quite large. 2) While I hate to use this term I like more "old school" style wines and don't like my reds overripe, hot, and gooey.

That said, while some wines can occasionally pull it off (a 1970 Ridge Jimsomare Mag I had not long ago is one example at about 16%) most are unable to balance being so ripe and high in ABV. I was recently at a dinner with some expensive "cult" California wines and I was shocked to see how IMO none of them are aging well at all, and the oldest one was from 2005! They are literaly falling apart as the heat is now the center point of the wine. I've been always stated that these expensive cult wines won't age and was told by those who loved them I was wrong. Funny part is many of those same people are now agreeing with me.

I say go back to making wines like you used to and stop making wines to suit one reviewers palate. I will now step off my

[Roy Hersh]

Someone explain to me how a vineyard of 50 year old vines that has never produced a wine with an ABV of 13.5-14% is now all of a sudden consistently producing wine with an ABV of 15-16% ABV? The only way to achieve such a rapid rise in alcohol content is with the help of humans.

Very simply, change the cropping and yields on a hl/ha basis. That is all it takes.

For me I prefer lower alcohol wines (Port excluded, after all we're talking table wines here) simply for two main reasons. 1) I like to enjoy more than one or two glasses and not feel tipsy. The difference between 2 or 3 glasses with a 2% ABV difference can be quite large.

Andy, with all due respect ... for the MANY of us who have consumed COPIOUS QUANTITIES of wine with you over the past six years know ... 2 glasses of ANY wine is not nearly enough to get YOU tipsy. As Frank Zappa sang, "Hey there brother, who you jiving with that cozmic debris?"

2) While I hate to use this term I like more "old school" style wines and don't like my reds overripe, hot, and gooey.

A bit more believable.

[Eric Menchen]

On Wednesday at a small gathering of 6 we finished off 3 bottles of Vinho Verde (Aveleda, Garcia, Gazela) and one white colheita Port (Krohn). That seems like a lot, but the Gazela was 9%, and I suspect the other two VVs were similar.

Being off by a fraction of a percentage point seems reasonable to me, and the 1.5% variation allowed not too unreasonable. If they don't overload the thing with sulfites, some small amount fermentation can take place in the bottle. There can be variation from barrel to barrel, and while they may blend barrels at bottling, the winery may not have capacity or desire to blend every barrel together into one big batch for bottling. ...

Here in Colorado there was a recent issue with brewpubs reporting a.b.v. The state was going to require them to have all their beers lab tested, but the businesses complained of the expense, and the governor, both a brewpub owner and someone wanting to appear pro-business nixed that. The brewpubs again are allowed to just estimate based on original and final gravity of the beer.

After reading that article, I wasn't particularly convinced that this underreporting was so intentional.

While I believe in climate change, I really don't see it causing the overall increased alcohol levels in wine. Like Andy, I think that is really human induced.

high alcohol beers (can't be labeled 'beer' in US over a certain point, hence malt-liquor

I don't think this is a federal thing, but common in some states. Some states don't even allow sales of beer over a certain a.b.v. North Carolina used to be this way, but may have changed. Here in Colorado I regularly see malted beverages with 8, 10, and even 12% abv, and none are labeled malt liquor. I tend to gravitate to some of these stronger beverages, but definitely don't count them as "one beer" for BAC purposes. On the other hand, when poured at a bar, the higher alcohol beers are often poured in smaller specialty glasses, from 6 to 10 ounces instead of 12 or 16.

[Andy Velebil]

For me I prefer lower alcohol wines (Port excluded, after all we're talking table wines here) simply for two main reasons. 1) I like to enjoy more than one or two glasses and not feel tipsy. The difference between 2 or 3 glasses with a 2% ABV difference can be quite large.

Andy, with all due respect ... for the MANY of us who have consumed COPIOUS QUANTITIES of wine with you over the past six years know ... 2 glasses of ANY wine is not nearly enough to get YOU tipsy. As Frank Zappa sang, "Hey there brother, who you jiving with that cozmic debris?"

What I meant to say is it's the BAC issue when I've got to drive home from a restaurant or friends house. You can be over the legal limit to drive and not always feel tipsy, that's the main issue.

[Peter W. Meek]

What I meant to say is it's the BAC issue when I've got to drive home from a restaurant or friends house. You can be over the legal limit to drive and not always feel tipsy, that's the main issue.

There are three separate issues: Safe, Legal, and Not-Upsetting-the-Wife.

[Roy Hersh]

Interesting sideways news on the topic:

http://www.decanter.com/news/wine-news/ ... er-alcohol

[Peter W. Meek]

Interesting sideways news on the topic:

http://www.decanter.com/news/wine-news/ ... er-alcohol

If he can do it (and sell the result) more power to him.

[Andy Velebil]

Interesting sideways news on the topic:

http://www.decanter.com/news/wine-news/ ... er-alcohol

If he can do it (and sell the result) more power to him.

I think he can and will do just well. He's one of the few to actively come out and admit to going back to older previous levels ABV, which I admire. Not to mention using less oak, just when did every Cali wine need tons of new oak? For once I'm glad to see things start to roll backwards.