How do I know it's really that old . . .

[Jay Hack]

I just got back from the AMC warehouse with 3 bottles of 1875 Madeira that I won at auction a few months ago. They are all Rare Wine Company bottlings with stickers indicating that they were bottled in 10-00 and 8-09. I assume that means 2000 and 2009, not 1900 and 1909. I then proceeded to research and write a beautiful post on the intervening 125+ years of Portugese history of revolution and upheaval, which my computer promptly destroyed as I was trying to post it. So I won't re-write it, but I will pose the question - how do I, or Manny Berk of Rare Wine Company, know that in 1935 some two-bit local Salazar supporter with more power than ethics didn't drink all the 1875 Madeira for his 60th birthday and replace it with 1922 Madeira? The 1922 was very nice - I bought a bottle in 2007 for my mother's 85th birthday - but it's 47 years "younger." I do not know how much I care how old it is if it tastes good, but I suppose that the metaphysical and spiritual component of drinking a wine that was vinified when Ulysses Grant was President and my great grandparents were teenagers would be strengthened if there were a way to know the truth.

[Philippe Borel]

Interesting question Jay! The answer is, probably, that we don't know. The world of ancient Madeira vintages is not crystal clear.....
Does a bottle of the 1795 vintage contain only a wine from the 1795 Madeira harvest? Strictly? Have these old pips been topped up
regularly over these many years by wines of the same year? With a, say, a yearly 5% evaporation factor? Personal opinion: no. Refreshed by
other old wines from other, more recent years? Personal opinion: highly likely. The maths doesn't work out.
If you ask IVBAM to confirm that ALL madeira vintages are absolutely authentic (wines from one single harvest) they will say yes. If you express doubt as to very old vintages they'll get mad at you. However they canno't support their statements with any documents
So, here we are: i think that we have in the wine world a clear understanding as to what constitues a 'Vintage' and a different set of rules for very old Madeiras.....
I drank my second to last bottle of 1802 Acciaoly Terrantez with friends last week. What is it a towering experience? Absolutely! Was all the wine in the bottle from the 1802 harvest, every single drop? Unlikely.
Does it really matter? The answer is, obviously yes and no....
Cheers! Enjoy your bottles Jay!

[Steve Pollack]

I drank my second to last bottle of 1802 Acciaoly Terrantez with friends last week.

Philippe, where are you located, and how can we become friends before you open the last bottle?

[Philippe Borel]

Magnanimous and genrous offer Steve! Much appreciated. Allow me to put you on the waiting list.... Should a vacancy occur i will contact you forthwith!
I can contemplate a civilized Madeira tasting, over an extended week-end in the lovely setting of Oak Park.
cheers!
philippe

[Eric Menchen]

Well, there is radioactive dating of various isotopes. It will be hard to confirm that your bottle is 1875, but if it contains anything grown since the nuclear age, that can probably be identified.

[Roy Hersh]

First and foremost, I want to welcome Philippe here. If you've never read his daughter Kathryn's book, "CORKED" it is quite an interesting read.

Great to see you here Philippe.

As we know the IVM or today's IVBAM have not been around all that long, so although they do have access to older documents, there was no regulatory organization in place, back in the day. Today, it is not possible to unseal ANY cask on the island (for registered sellers of Madeira) without first contacting the IVBAM for permission and they typically come to be there when that happens.

In the old days, that was not the case and nobody can vouch for how/what is done w/ topping off. Although I've learned that on the island the rate of evaporation runs from 2-5%, the average is closer to 3%. It changes the math that Philippe eludes to. Anyway, I agree that it is truly impossible to date the wine in a cask, if things were mixed together, unless a careful record shows the facts, we'll just have to believe what we're told ... or not.

1802 Terrantez by Acciaioly has my mouth watering just reading about it. Philippe, if you ever get to Seattle, you need to let me know. But you already know this. Great to havee you join us here, mon ami!

[Philippe Borel]

Well Roy...... after such a warm welcome it would be totally inappropriate on my part to start debating 2, 3 or 5% yearly evaporation of the pipes....
You're take is as usual insightful, philosophical and highly knowledgeable.
You keep this great Forum alive with your drive and your love of what is one of the world's great wines.
We are all in you debt.

Long live Fortheloveofport!

philippe

[Jay Hack]

I've not checked in on this thread for a while and I am glad to see what I think are honest answers. I had some 1850 Madeira at Berns last December and it really doesn't matter whether it was pure 1850 or half 1850. The idea of drinking wine that was even partially from the year that Zachary Taylor and Millard Filmore shared the Presidency was enough. Besides, it was virtually the last pre-odium wine made that is still available (Odium hit in 1852). I tried to get a bottle of 1825 at auction a few months ago, but someone wanted it much more than I did, so I had to let it go. However, I am looking forward to the 1875, the first bottle of which I will open at a special occasion in the Fall. I have three bottles of it, and I'll have to find a good excuse to open one of them. I might actually give the third botle to my now non-existent granchildren to save and drink on its 200th Birthday.

[Joe Dachille]

Jay,
When were you last at Bern's? I am long overdue for another visit. Vintage Madeira or steak at Bern's? It's a close call if I had to spend $$ on only one...nah...at Bern's you can get both!

Some time ago (2/27/10) I wrote a post about madeira wine selections for every course and I got some great suggestions. The dinner and the wine were...what elst...fabulous!

The 1870 Lomelino Sercial with the french onion soup was fantastic, and I'm not even a big fan of sercial.

Joe D'Achille