Historic UK bottlers & performance

Post by **Roy Hersh** » Sun Dec 15, 2013 4:09 pm

Nobody would question the high quality of some of the great UK bottlers, and there are many, but there are also some that I've noted that have less than excellent performance. Granted lots of that may be due to storage conditions and shipping over the decades or centuries, but there are certainly trends and conclusions that can be drawn. We can take Berry Bros. and Rudd off the table, as one example of exemplary performance when it comes to bottling. Others good and bad?

Marc J. · Post by **Marc J.** » Sun Dec 15, 2013 4:56 pm

I'd say that Justerini & Brooks, Grants of St. James, Corney & Barrow, John E. Fells, Lister & Beck & J. Joute (in addition to Berry Bros. & Rudd) are some of the better UK bottlers. Its true that there are quite a few companies that were involved in bottling port over the last century, but I do believe that the above list includes many of the top firms.

Tom D. · Post by **Tom D.** » Sun Dec 15, 2013 6:45 pm

Considering how ubiquitous their bottles are, I've not had great luck with Whitwhams, maybe just bad luck?

Post by **Roy Hersh** » Sun Dec 15, 2013 7:38 pm

Marc, a nice list, but FAR from complete. As you will see ... if some of our other forum members will participate, there are many others. I can think of at least another half dozen off the top of my head.

Tom mentions one of those, right below your post. I am sure we'll hear about some more. That being said, I know you have lots of older bottles and plenty of great experience drinking UK bottlings. I bet if you looked at your own holdings they would surprise you with all the other names you would find. :NotWorthy:

Tom D. · Post by **Tom D.** » Sun Dec 15, 2013 8:02 pm

In fairness, my experience with Whitwhams hasn't been uniformly negative, I've had a couple nice ones including an exceptional 1935 Taylor.

Also in the plus column I recall a couple exceptional bottles from John Harvey of Bristol and Hunter & Oliver, as well as a bunch of BB&R.

Marc J. · Post by **Marc J.** » Sun Dec 15, 2013 8:18 pm

Roy Hersh wrote:Marc, a nice list, but FAR from complete. As you will see ... if some of our other forum members will participate, there are many others. I can think of at least another half dozen off the top of my head.

Tom mentions one of those, right below your post. I am sure we'll hear about some more. That being said, I know you have lots of older bottles and plenty of great experience drinking UK bottlings. I bet if you looked at your own holdings they would surprise you with all the other names you would find.

Of course there are quite a few more that also would fall into the top tier. Firms such as H. H. Roose, Evans Marshall & Co and D. J. Davies & Hammond should also be included in the list of top tier UK bottlers. Similar to Tom's experience, I've had some mixed results with Whitwhams. I've had a good amount of experience with the bottles that I've opened from the firms I listed, although there are a number of bottlers from whom I may only tried one or two bottles, therefore I really can't pass judgement on their overall quality vs possible bottle variation.

Eric Menchen · Post by **Eric Menchen** » Mon Dec 16, 2013 12:15 am

I just opened a 1960 Quinta do Noval this week that had a Whitwhams label, although the capsule was labeled as Corney & Barrow. While the wine seemed a bit older than its age, I can't say I found any fault I could blame on the bottling.

Post by **Andy Velebil** » Mon Dec 16, 2013 6:34 am

Tom D. wrote:Considering how ubiquitous their bottles are, I've not had great luck with Whitwhams, maybe just bad luck?

This is a very interesting company. It does have a reputation for being a bit dubious. They did a lot of recorking/topping up of bottles for people and the end result often seemed to be different, shall we say. At least from what I've been told from many people over the years and based on my limited experience of tasting bottles which have been through their hands. YMMV

Would be curious as to others experience and/or thoughts regarding this company?

Moses Botbol · Post by **Moses Botbol** » Mon Dec 16, 2013 8:08 am

Andy Velebil wrote:
Would be curious as to others experience and/or thoughts regarding this company?

The bottles I have of their 1853 Whitwhams Millennium Port is outstanding. How old is it really? I don't know and don't care.

Post by **Roy Hersh** » Mon Dec 16, 2013 4:07 pm

Moses, I had one just over a week ago and it was still as wonderful as ever. Agree, contents really don't matter at this point. However, what Tom and others are alluding to ... has to do with Whitwham's older VP bottlings, not fairly recent ones like the 1853 (?) that began in 2001.

David Spriggs · Post by **David Spriggs** » Fri Dec 20, 2013 11:30 pm

Honestly, my experience with Whitwham's VP bottlings is poor. They are consistently weak to me. I now avoid purchasing them.

Al B. · Post by **Al B.** » Sat Dec 21, 2013 5:12 pm

I also avoid Charles Kinloch bottlings, which I have found to be relatively poor performers compared to other bottlers.

Army & Navy are usually good quality bottlings.

Tom Archer · Post by **Tom Archer** » Sun Dec 22, 2013 3:09 am

The great tragedy is that no-one has ever recorded the history of the English bottlers, and forty years down the line, it seems too late to begin a proper account now.

The number of bottlers is considerable - I would estimate around 100 - possibly more - in all.

It would be nice if this site - or 'another place..' - started a sticky thread that compiled on its opening post a directory that gives:

a) Name of bottler
b) Location
c) Vintages bottled
d) Whether they had a strong attachment to one shipper, or bottled widely

So that at the very least, we have some sort of historic reference.

Rob C. · Post by **Rob C.** » Mon Dec 30, 2013 11:56 am

While i like BBR bottlings generally, i'm not so convinced that they were above average in the 1970 vintage (which was one of the first vintages to be bottled down in Basingstoke rather than London, i think)

Avery was also a quality bottler in my experience.

Of course, some of this is not just technical capability, but the financial clout to ensure that they had first pick of the most favourable lotes...

Rob C. · Post by **Rob C.** » Mon Dec 30, 2013 12:05 pm

Roy Hersh wrote:Moses, I had one just over a week ago and it was still as wonderful as ever. Agree, contents really don't matter at this point. However, what Tom and others are alluding to ... has to do with Whitwham's older VP bottlings, not fairly recent ones like the 1853 (?) that began in 2001.

Also - at least with the "1880" Whitwham - it was not bottled by Whitwham at all but by Dirk Niepoort!

Post by **Andy Velebil** » Mon Dec 30, 2013 7:37 pm

Rob C. wrote:
Roy Hersh wrote:Moses, I had one just over a week ago and it was still as wonderful as ever. Agree, contents really don't matter at this point. However, what Tom and others are alluding to ... has to do with Whitwham's older VP bottlings, not fairly recent ones like the 1853 (?) that began in 2001.
Also - at least with the "1880" Whitwham - it was not bottled by Whitwham at all but by Dirk Niepoort!

It has to do with their overall reputation as to their treatment of older Ports period. Older and stuff such as these younger "old" ones which obviously have been refreshed (granted, at least one was sold with such info publicly known).

To clarify, to my knowledge these were "found" by Whitwham's as is often done in the Douro, bought, and later they contracted Niepoort to bottle them (and in one Dirk added some of his Port to it to freshen it up). There is a serious lack of information as to where exactly these were found, how much was found, how much was bottled, etc. At least I've never seen such info, so please point out if someone here has as I'd love to know....It would be nice to get that info as Adrian so kindly did with the Scion.

David Spriggs · Post by **David Spriggs** » Thu Jan 02, 2014 12:28 am

Rob C. wrote:While i like BBR bottlings generally, i'm not so convinced that they were above average in the 1970 vintage (which was one of the first vintages to be bottled down in Basingstoke rather than London, i think)

I agree. I have quite a few 1970 Fonseca from different bottlers. The BBR are the weakest if the bunch. Not that the bottles are bad, but they are certainly uneven with quite a few leakers. The leakage is due to poor quality corks. So those leakers are the ones I'm drinking now

.

My favorite bottler of F70 is Morgan Furze.

Post by **Roy Hersh** » Tue Jan 07, 2014 11:53 am

Rob C. wrote:

Of course, some of this is not just technical capability, but the financial clout to ensure that they had first pick of the most favourable lotes...

More to the point, some of the issues seem to have been more more hygienic than technical or financial, back in the day.

Shawn Denkler · Post by **Shawn Denkler** » Wed Dec 06, 2017 5:27 pm

I just imported a 1955 Fonseca bottled by The Newcastle Breweries. I've never had any other ports bottled by them. What do others think of this bottler. It is important to know since I'm doing a 1955 Vertical and I want to use the best bottling of the ones I have.

Tom Archer · Post by **Tom Archer** » Thu Dec 07, 2017 12:13 am

I just imported a 1955 Fonseca bottled by The Newcastle Breweries. I've never had any other ports bottled by them. What do others think of this bottler. It is important to know since I'm doing a 1955 Vertical and I want to use the best bottling of the ones I have.

One of the more frequently seen bottlers from outside the London area. Stock from this bottler has often been cellared in the cool north east of England. Earlier capsules wax, later ones foil - have never seen any bottles from this bottler post 1955.

For The Love Of Port