1970 vs. 1985

[Moses Botbol]

For the most part, I would say 1970 is a better vintage due to uniform quality throughout the vintage, but what about those producers who made exceptional 85's like Taylor, Fonseca, Ramos Pinto, and Grahams...

Do you think their 1970's vintage is better than 1985?

[John Vachon]

Much better-I was at a 85 release tasting and I was not impressed-but since a few of the wines I like(T,F and to a

much lesser degree W. I didn't buy many.

[Glenn E.]

For the most part, I would say 1970 is a better vintage due to uniform quality throughout the vintage, but what about those producers who made exceptional 85's like Taylor, Fonseca, Ramos Pinto, and Grahams...

Do you think their 1970's vintage is better than 1985?

As a vintage, I think 1970 is clearly superior to 1985. It's really not a legitimate question.

But to your point... I think that almost all 1970s are better than their 1985 counterparts with two possible exceptions: Fonseca and Graham. And on those two, it's just too tough to call for me. The 15-year age difference doesn't help. After all, no matter how good F85 and G85 are now, in another 15 years will they be as good as F70 and G70 are now? I'm just not that good at predicting the future.

And I'll argue with you about T85 and RP85 being exceptional, unless by that you merely mean excellent. They're excellent Ports, but at the low end of excellent for me. I generally have them in the 90-92 range, whereas T70 is generally in the 94-95 range for me (which I call outstanding). I don't recall having had RP70 off the top of my head, but I may have just forgotten.

[Moses Botbol]

I think that almost all 1970s are better than their 1985 counterparts with two possible exceptions: Fonseca and Graham. And on those two, it's just too tough to call for me.

I could also add Noval and Warre...

[John Vachon]

70 & 85 W could be a toss up-I know most people don't like 85 T as much as me but 70 F is the big winner.

Now I like 85 F but IMO it's not even close.

[Glenn E.]

I think that almost all 1970s are better than their 1985 counterparts with two possible exceptions: Fonseca and Graham. And on those two, it's just too tough to call for me.

I could also add Noval and Warre...

Really? 1985 Noval is not terribly impressive. Mid-80's at best. Or are you saying that 1970 Noval is worse?

I have a hard time judging Warre as it's not my style, but going by the TNDB the 1970 is ~2 points better than the 1985.

[Moses Botbol]

Really? 1985 Noval is not terribly impressive. Mid-80's at best. Or are you saying that 1970 Noval is worse?

I have a hard time judging Warre as it's not my style, but going by the TNDB the 1970 is ~2 points better than the 1985.

Noval 85 and 70 being tied at not terribly impressive.

How about Dow? Is 1970 better than 1985?

[Glenn E.]

Really? 1985 Noval is not terribly impressive. Mid-80's at best. Or are you saying that 1970 Noval is worse?

I have a hard time judging Warre as it's not my style, but going by the TNDB the 1970 is ~2 points better than the 1985.

Noval 85 and 70 being tied at not terribly impressive.

How about Dow? Is 1970 better than 1985?

Hmm... that's a good question. D85 can be very nice. I don't recall ever having tried D70.

[Frederick Blais]

For the most part, I would say 1970 is a better vintage due to uniform quality throughout the vintage, but what about those producers who made exceptional 85's like Taylor, Fonseca, Ramos Pinto, and Grahams...

Do you think their 1970's vintage is better than 1985?

I agree that Fonseca and Graham's made both great 70 and 85. Never had Ramos 70.

Maybe Graham's did a better 1985, but I'm not generally found of 1985. Ramos Pinto and Taylor's 85 for me are flawed and early maturing.

Clearly in my mind Taylor and Fonseca made way better 1970 than 1985. Though for the price, I'd buy a case of Fonseca 85 over 3 bottles of 1970.

[Eric Menchen]

Clearly in my mind Taylor and Fonseca made way better 1970 than 1985. Though for the price, I'd buy a case of Fonseca 85 over 3 bottles of 1970.

A case, yeah probably. But they 1970 Fonseca is pretty phenomenal IMHO. I might take 3 1970s over 9 1985s. (There is a little collection bias there too. I think I have plenty of younger bottles to drink, but I'm drinking the 1970s regularly.)

[Marc J.]

I'd say that as a vintage, 1970 is clearly superior to 1985. There were some standout wines produced in 1985, but generally speaking those were the exceptions. Taken as a whole, 1970 is a much more impressive vintage - its not even close.

[Tom Archer]

I rate 1970 as one of the two best vintages (Alpha +) of the past 50 years. The other vintage to currently hold the same accolade is 2003, but unless something emerges to change my mind over the next six months, 2011 will displace '03 in my rankings for 2015.

1985 I rate only as a straight Beta vintage. Although widely declared (possibly a record at the time) there are many badly troubled wines. Of the sound players, Graham and Fonseca run their '70 counterparts close. However, given the recent evolution of the F85, I would hesitate at this point before calling it a superior wine to the F70.

[Roy Hersh]

A strong argument could be made for the F85 over the F70, but why have to choose, when both can still be found. They are incredible vintage Ports in their own right.


Glenn wrote to Moses:

As a vintage, I think 1970 is clearly superior to 1985. It's really not a legitimate question.

Please explain why it is not a legit ? I think it is a great discussion point, even if the majority here would rule for the older vintage. I think that number of 1985's that are still flawed today, is so badly overblown by just a few folks (started by Richard Mayson when his first edition of Port and the Douro, came out) that I can't wait until 2015, when that claim shall be dis-proven. I've tried a ton of 1985's and can't remember the last time that I had a terrible bottle (w/out TCA). Even Taylor's 1985 which is average at best in my opinion, has never been terrible or close to it ... just not up to par with expectations of what a Taylor VP can deliver in a typically good or great year. Noval is even weaker in 1985 and yet, it is not "bad" just mature and simple.

[Bradley Bogdan]

Really? 1985 Noval is not terribly impressive. Mid-80's at best. Or are you saying that 1970 Noval is worse?

I have a hard time judging Warre as it's not my style, but going by the TNDB the 1970 is ~2 points better than the 1985.

Noval 85 and 70 being tied at not terribly impressive.

How about Dow? Is 1970 better than 1985?

Hmm... that's a good question. D85 can be very nice. I don't recall ever having tried D70.

Had a D70 a couple weeks ago, was a stunner. Never had D85, though I do happen to own one.


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[Tom Archer]

How about Dow? Is 1970 better than 1985?

D85 is one of those Symington vintage ports where there appears to be more than one bottling. I am not sure how many examples of this there are - if the wines and bottles are a good match then of course no-one would notice.

Most W75 is a bit feeble and very hot, but some bottles are fuller and have no fire at all - The early release W80 I have tried looked a bit evolved and unremarkable, whereas late release bottles share the depth and intensity of the D80 and G80.

All the early release D85 I have come across (quite a lot of it..) has been in wholly opaque black glass, and is a solid wine with loads of life left. However, on the couple of occasions when I've been treated to a glass of D85 in the Graham lodge, the wine has been far more evolved and less impressive; and the bottles, curiously, are a pale green..

So, is D85 a better wine than D70? Answer: Look at the bottle. Black glass, possibly - but D70 is no slouch. Pale green glass - no.

[Andy Velebil]

Very interesting and well reasoned comments so far. For me, I have a preference for 1970 overall. Sure there are some very lovely 1985's. Such as those from the Sym's, Fonseca, and Niepoort (though reaching maturity already), to name some. But overall, most 1985's are reaching peak early and I just don't see them making very good old bones. While 1970 even some of the lower tier producers made some very lovely juice that is still drinking well today.

As for the comments regarding 1985 Dow's. Having done in the not to distance past an amazing tasting of top bottles directly from the Sym's cellars while in Portugal I can say the 1985 Dow's was showing much more evolution than the Graham's, which I feel is one of the top from the vintage. I don't see the Dow's making it to super old bones like the 1963 has done. I feel it will be reaching maturity within the next 5-8 years and then a slow slide past that. The tasting reinforced my view that the 1985 Dow's will be one I drink first while other 1985's keep sleeping. That is not to say it's not a very good bottle, as it is. Just IMO it will mature faster than the Graham's and Fonseca, two I consider the top dogs in 1985.

[Andy Velebil]

Tom,
Interesting observation. IMO, I was more impressed with the 1970 Dow's than the 1985. I feel the D70 will outlive the '85.

Have you noticed any significant bottle variations within the Dow's 1970?

[Glenn E.]

Please explain why it is not a legit ?

Which football team is better: the Seattle Seahawks or the University of Washington Huskies?

It's not really a legitimate question, is it?

[Tom Archer]

Have you noticed any significant bottle variations within the Dow's 1970?

At an event a few years ago, a senior member of the Symington family was repeating the standard mantra against the English bottlers, despite the fact that 20 years after bottling had been repatriated, the Portuguese still hadn't got it right.

To reinforce his argument, he cited Courtenay Wines as the prime demon in the British bottling camp.

Well, if Courtenay's demonic Dow '70 is anything to go by, I'd love to know who the saints are..

[David Spriggs]

So, is D85 a better wine than D70? Answer: Look at the bottle. Black glass, possibly - but D70 is no slouch. Pale green glass - no.

Ha! I agree with you 100% on this.