Jay,
I know the US importer pretty well. The actual rep handling Portal directly in the USA is based in MA. I will contact her to see how you can obtain Portal '03. I can't promise anything more than the effort.
Have you, or do you plan to buy any 2003 Vintage Ports?
Moderators: Glenn E., Roy Hersh, Andy Velebil
Ambition driven by passion, rather than money, is as strong an elixir as is Port. http://www.fortheloveofport.com
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Jay Woodruff
- Posts: 78
- Joined: Sat Jul 30, 2005 2:48 pm
- Location: Mesa, Arizona, United States of America - USA
The importer and owner of Portal have been contacted to see if they'll put together a pre-release deal for the USA, for the first time. This should be interesting.
Ambition driven by passion, rather than money, is as strong an elixir as is Port. http://www.fortheloveofport.com
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Frederick Blais
- Posts: 2710
- Joined: Sun Jul 31, 2005 10:07 am
- Location: Porto, Portugal
Another QPR VP that need to me mentionned from what I've tasted since their 1997 Vintage. Quinta do Castelinho. Their 97,2000 and 2002 all left me great impression for the price around 40$can on release, only Rozes and Cruz VP are cheaper than that in Quebec and it does not taste cheap! An early maturer but gives good pleasure while you wait for the big names!
Living the dream and now working for a Port company
Fred, agreed with Castelinho. I've tasted the 2000 twice and it is a great value here $21cdn 375ml. The only reason I didn't buy a handful of these was the very short and disappointing finish .... everything leading up to the finish is excellent. Not a futures wine but i agree it's one to look for once released.
The 00 Pocas is still the king of Vp values in Ontario at $33cdn 750ml. I hope the 03 pricing is similar.
The 00 Pocas is still the king of Vp values in Ontario at $33cdn 750ml. I hope the 03 pricing is similar.
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Justin Willott
- Posts: 27
- Joined: Fri Aug 05, 2005 4:45 am
- Location: Berkshire, UK
You say around USD100. Here in the UK you can pay £340 for a 12 bt case of Fonseca and £355 for Taylor before duty and tax. The duty and tax would only be around £80/case. Even allowing for an exchange rate between GBP and USD of 2, this would be £500 a case. Why are prices always so much higher for VP in the US - is it just supply and demand or is it taxation?
Here means Switzerland, I quoted the price in USD (around 125 swiss francs), for better understanding. But you are right: these prices are mad and I dont know the reason why.... maybe it's the small market, as port is not so popular here... taxes don't add much...and in Germany and other countries in central Europe the price-level is almost the same. I've checked the price list of almost every wineshop here and the very best bargains I found was Fonseca 2000 (equivalent of 80 US), Niepoort 1997 (60 US) and Vargellas 1987 (45 US), and that's still a lot compared to regular prices in the UK or US.
On the other hand wines of Italy are usualy cheaper than in any other country including Italy itself...I just happily got a case of Giacosa Barbaresco Asili 1997 for 40 US/bt....
Christian
On the other hand wines of Italy are usualy cheaper than in any other country including Italy itself...I just happily got a case of Giacosa Barbaresco Asili 1997 for 40 US/bt....
Christian
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David Spriggs
- Posts: 2657
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- Location: Boulder Creek, California, United States of America - USA
- Contact:
Re: Have you, or do you plan to buy any 2003 Vintage Ports?
I picked up some 2003 Fonseca and Croft -- despite my pledge to buy no more young vintage ports after the 1994 vintage. Oh well :) These two are some of my favorite producers. Having had old Crofts - when they are good, they are very good. I would love to see this port producer move up in the rankings. Still, I paid too much for these - prices in the UK are significantly cheaper.
-Dave-
-Dave-
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David Spriggs
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David,
I appreciate the fact that you started the new thread on the pricing differential between the markets.
I appreciate the fact that you started the new thread on the pricing differential between the markets.
Ambition driven by passion, rather than money, is as strong an elixir as is Port. http://www.fortheloveofport.com
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Emma Dalton
- Posts: 3
- Joined: Mon Aug 22, 2005 1:11 am
- Location: London
2003 ports
I've been lucky enough to try most of the 2003s a couple of times or more, so my list is a very personal impression of the vintage, rather than one based on critics' comments. Hence:
Dow
Fonseca
Taylor
Nacional (if I'm very lucky, given how little is being made available for sale).
Dow
Fonseca
Taylor
Nacional (if I'm very lucky, given how little is being made available for sale).
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Stuart Chatfield
- Posts: 214
- Joined: Mon Aug 22, 2005 5:08 am
- Location: London, England
I'd like to comment on the general thread and Dave's pricing point together.
The fact is (as others have said) that when you compare the 2003 in-bonds with the London auction prices of mature vintages it does not make economic sense. 2003 may be good and in low quantity, but why pay the same for 2003 as you can for and '80, '83 or '85 which is just entering the start of its mature period? Indeed why pay GBP35 for a Taylor '03 when you can get a '66 for GBP55? I don't believe that the price of the '03s will rise quicker than putting your money on the stock market for 20 years and buying the '03s in 2025.
I suspect that due to the obvious history of the thing, there is so much mature port (today) in England that there would be more resistance to paying over the odds for immature wine. I'd guess that mature port is more scarce in the US and, unfortunately for you US port lovers, you pay the premium for the scarcity or for the shipping of wines bought at London auctions. Also, the US is a newer market than England and there needs to be a hard sell on them for their (the producers) cash flow. What do the producers get out of a bottle of '80 changing hands at auction?
Whilst 1st growth/super second Bordeaux seems to double in price between release and the drinking window, I think the dumb period for port is just too long for this to work.
I say let the wine merchants store them for 20 years - with their warehouses the cost is effectively zero to them. Then we consumers should buy the wines just as they become mature, but before they become scarce - say the 80s vintages as others have mentioned here.
Over the next decade or two as we in England exhaust our historical stocks and the US builds up its own the prices will, probably, have to equal out.
The fact is (as others have said) that when you compare the 2003 in-bonds with the London auction prices of mature vintages it does not make economic sense. 2003 may be good and in low quantity, but why pay the same for 2003 as you can for and '80, '83 or '85 which is just entering the start of its mature period? Indeed why pay GBP35 for a Taylor '03 when you can get a '66 for GBP55? I don't believe that the price of the '03s will rise quicker than putting your money on the stock market for 20 years and buying the '03s in 2025.
I suspect that due to the obvious history of the thing, there is so much mature port (today) in England that there would be more resistance to paying over the odds for immature wine. I'd guess that mature port is more scarce in the US and, unfortunately for you US port lovers, you pay the premium for the scarcity or for the shipping of wines bought at London auctions. Also, the US is a newer market than England and there needs to be a hard sell on them for their (the producers) cash flow. What do the producers get out of a bottle of '80 changing hands at auction?
Whilst 1st growth/super second Bordeaux seems to double in price between release and the drinking window, I think the dumb period for port is just too long for this to work.
I say let the wine merchants store them for 20 years - with their warehouses the cost is effectively zero to them. Then we consumers should buy the wines just as they become mature, but before they become scarce - say the 80s vintages as others have mentioned here.
Over the next decade or two as we in England exhaust our historical stocks and the US builds up its own the prices will, probably, have to equal out.
Stuart Chatfield London, England
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David Spriggs
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Having just looked over a couple of merchants' lists offering 2003s, it seems a strange market which offers a wine at high price, which you cannot begin to drink for 10 or 20 years, and which may turn out very differently, after a few years in bottle, than the experts predicted, pace the 1985s.
My own experience is that whenever I have bought early (close to release), it would have been better to wait. Looking around for bargains seems to pay off in the port market seems to work far better than with any other wine.
That may work for this drinker (not consumer), but what does it say about the health of the port industry?
John
My own experience is that whenever I have bought early (close to release), it would have been better to wait. Looking around for bargains seems to pay off in the port market seems to work far better than with any other wine.
That may work for this drinker (not consumer), but what does it say about the health of the port industry?
John
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Emma Dalton
- Posts: 3
- Joined: Mon Aug 22, 2005 1:11 am
- Location: London
If buying port from a pure investment point of view, then I can certainly see your point. Similarly so if the vintage is one that is unlikely to be mature during one's lifetime.
However, and this applies to all en primeur purchases, part of the benefit gained from an en primeur port purchase is the certainty of provenance, by which term I would include appropriate storage. This is something of considerable value to me, hence all of my long-term wines are stored at Octavian's underground facility.
Of course, the port market is very different to the first growth Bordeaux market. Whoever heard of stagging a port allocation?
Acquiring my chosen ports now will certainly cost me more than through the secondary markets at a later stage, whether pre-maturity or once ready to drink, as I choose to store them off-site. For this premium, I can be confident that my ports have been appropriately stored, rather than kept in a box in someone's kitchen. I have worked in the wine department of one of the major auction houses, so I know how important this element may be in terms of the wine's development.
Ultimately, any wine futures purchase is a gamble. So is the purchase of any wine through the secondary market. Being the age I am, some wines are only available to me through that market (for the '47s I would have had to had grandparents more vino-phillic than they were, and for Huet's 1927 Haut Lieu I would have had to have vino-centric great-grandparents). Thus, for such purchases, the secondary market is usually the only option. But for more recent vintages? My choice is governed by four main factors: the release price of the wine, the price of the mature wine compared to its likely maturation costs, my desire to drink it and its likely scarcity (considering only bottles with satisfactory provenance) should I not buy it en primeur.
That is not to say those are the only factors, just that they are the ones most persuasive to me.
Ultimately, it is a personal decision. The fact that some will reach the same conclusion as myself and others the exact opposite, is entirely natural.
What is most important is remembering that wine, including port, is made to be enjoyed.
However, and this applies to all en primeur purchases, part of the benefit gained from an en primeur port purchase is the certainty of provenance, by which term I would include appropriate storage. This is something of considerable value to me, hence all of my long-term wines are stored at Octavian's underground facility.
Of course, the port market is very different to the first growth Bordeaux market. Whoever heard of stagging a port allocation?
Acquiring my chosen ports now will certainly cost me more than through the secondary markets at a later stage, whether pre-maturity or once ready to drink, as I choose to store them off-site. For this premium, I can be confident that my ports have been appropriately stored, rather than kept in a box in someone's kitchen. I have worked in the wine department of one of the major auction houses, so I know how important this element may be in terms of the wine's development.
Ultimately, any wine futures purchase is a gamble. So is the purchase of any wine through the secondary market. Being the age I am, some wines are only available to me through that market (for the '47s I would have had to had grandparents more vino-phillic than they were, and for Huet's 1927 Haut Lieu I would have had to have vino-centric great-grandparents). Thus, for such purchases, the secondary market is usually the only option. But for more recent vintages? My choice is governed by four main factors: the release price of the wine, the price of the mature wine compared to its likely maturation costs, my desire to drink it and its likely scarcity (considering only bottles with satisfactory provenance) should I not buy it en primeur.
That is not to say those are the only factors, just that they are the ones most persuasive to me.
Ultimately, it is a personal decision. The fact that some will reach the same conclusion as myself and others the exact opposite, is entirely natural.
What is most important is remembering that wine, including port, is made to be enjoyed.
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Tom Archer
- Posts: 2789
- Joined: Tue Aug 09, 2005 8:09 pm
- Location: Near Saffron Walden, England
I take four cases "en primeur" in a major declaration year
For better or worse, I pitch on the following basis:
1 case from a big trustworthy name - this time Noval
1 case from a promising dark horse in the big league - this time Delaforce
1 case from a major single quinta - this time Vesuvio
1 case from a serious little guy - this time Rosa
It's always gamble of course, and one should be wary of reviews - these wines won't be good drinking for another ten years, and a lot can happen between now and then!
For better or worse, I pitch on the following basis:
1 case from a big trustworthy name - this time Noval
1 case from a promising dark horse in the big league - this time Delaforce
1 case from a major single quinta - this time Vesuvio
1 case from a serious little guy - this time Rosa
It's always gamble of course, and one should be wary of reviews - these wines won't be good drinking for another ten years, and a lot can happen between now and then!
Personally, I don't bother with young wines unless I want the wood case, as I did when I bought some birth-year wines for my kids.
The fact is that young VP is pretty expensive and mature VP out of bonded storage in the UK is really pretty inexpensive. Why spend $110 on an 03 Taylor when I can spend quite a bit LESS and buy a mature Taylor from a perfectly good year?
With Graham's the price disconnect is even more noticable
My theory: the wine comes out and port enthusiasts jump to load up on favorites, as do restaurants and so forth. Price is high.
Then five or ten years pass and the producer still has lots of wine in their warehouses in the UK. So they start to release the same wine at lower prices -- forced to compete against the latest reviews for the hot bottles of the moment.
So unless you really worry about scarcity, I think you do best to wait and then buy in modest volume (a few cases) through a dealer like Sokolin who resells on behalf of these bonded warehouses and has their own reefers coming in every 2 or 3 months.
The fact is that young VP is pretty expensive and mature VP out of bonded storage in the UK is really pretty inexpensive. Why spend $110 on an 03 Taylor when I can spend quite a bit LESS and buy a mature Taylor from a perfectly good year?
With Graham's the price disconnect is even more noticable
My theory: the wine comes out and port enthusiasts jump to load up on favorites, as do restaurants and so forth. Price is high.
Then five or ten years pass and the producer still has lots of wine in their warehouses in the UK. So they start to release the same wine at lower prices -- forced to compete against the latest reviews for the hot bottles of the moment.
So unless you really worry about scarcity, I think you do best to wait and then buy in modest volume (a few cases) through a dealer like Sokolin who resells on behalf of these bonded warehouses and has their own reefers coming in every 2 or 3 months.
Stuart wrote:
Uncle Tom wrote:
I do not disagree about being wary. More importantly, hedge your bets by reading the reviews of a number of writers. Some review a vintage and their impressions are valid at the moment, but not for the long term. This is why I seek out those who have the experience in reviewing wines from cask, with regularity. I look to see which critic or journalist's palate I tend to agree with and then trust their view a bit more.
I certainly don't think that folks should use my blind tasting of the '03s (or anybody else's either) as the gospel. Taste for yourself whenever possible. Ask questions and read a wide variety of reviews and look for common gems that will seem to be a no brainer. After my article was written, I went back to read Mayson, Jancis and Suckling ... the only three I care about when it comes to VP cask reviews.
Ken writes:
Quite simply, (like Emma said) PROVENANCE. When you go to buy the '03 bottle in '25, how will you know the condition of the 7 cellars this bottle has passed through? Was it shipped to auction mid-summer and kept over the weekend in a truck somewhere? PROVENANCE is the reason for buying '03s today vs. in 20 years. It is not about the money.The fact is (as others have said) that when you compare the 2003 in-bonds with the London auction prices of mature vintages it does not make economic sense. 2003 may be good and in low quantity, but why pay the same for 2003 as you can for and '80, '83 or '85 which is just entering the start of its mature period? Indeed why pay GBP35 for a Taylor '03 when you can get a '66 for GBP55? I don't believe that the price of the '03s will rise quicker than putting your money on the stock market for 20 years and buying the '03s in 2025.
Uncle Tom wrote:
It's always gamble of course, and one should be wary of reviews - these wines won't be good drinking for another ten years, and a lot can happen between now and then!
I do not disagree about being wary. More importantly, hedge your bets by reading the reviews of a number of writers. Some review a vintage and their impressions are valid at the moment, but not for the long term. This is why I seek out those who have the experience in reviewing wines from cask, with regularity. I look to see which critic or journalist's palate I tend to agree with and then trust their view a bit more.
I certainly don't think that folks should use my blind tasting of the '03s (or anybody else's either) as the gospel. Taste for yourself whenever possible. Ask questions and read a wide variety of reviews and look for common gems that will seem to be a no brainer. After my article was written, I went back to read Mayson, Jancis and Suckling ... the only three I care about when it comes to VP cask reviews.
Ken writes:
By regulation, the Port house must hold back a certain percentage of their production for later releases. That is why, you see ex-cellars, pristine bottles hitting the market later on. It is KNOWING when they do, and where they will land, that is the trick.Then five or ten years pass and the producer still has lots of wine in their warehouses in the UK.
Ambition driven by passion, rather than money, is as strong an elixir as is Port. http://www.fortheloveofport.com
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Victor John Randall
- Posts: 6
- Joined: Sun Aug 28, 2005 12:29 am
- Location: Munich
Hi Roy, congrats on the great site!
Still undecided whether to dive in in view of the common fact, that mature VP are widely available for the same price as 2003 VP. Might go for a couple of bottles of QdN and Nacional though, if someone can share with a TN, exactly HOW good these are (compared to their counterparts in 1994, 1997 and 2000).
Cheers, Victor
Still undecided whether to dive in in view of the common fact, that mature VP are widely available for the same price as 2003 VP. Might go for a couple of bottles of QdN and Nacional though, if someone can share with a TN, exactly HOW good these are (compared to their counterparts in 1994, 1997 and 2000).
Cheers, Victor