Would you buy VP if it had a screw cap?

[Roy Hersh]

Marc,

Good to see you!

I normally would agree, but the Australian wine industry has done a test over the past two decades and have found positive results for certain types of screw cap closures. I am not sure that I am 100% convinced though and would probably agree with you and err on the side of caution, but science/technology is catching up!

However, like a great bottle of Claret, I am just not sure that I could ever fathom seeing a screw cap on a bottle life a great Vintage Port.

Fortunately, due to tradition and the fact that 80% of the world's cork supply comes from Portugal, probably ensures that corks are here to stay for VP. However, we've seen even more prominent changes in the Port trade and way that traditional things revolving around Vintage Port and just Port in general, have changed ... just in the past decade alone.

[Andy Velebil]

Would I buy a VP with a screw cap? - No! For a bottle that requires long-term aging in order to reach its peak, a screw cap just isn't the way to go. If the wine was intended for immediate drinking I wouldn't have problem with a screw top enclosure, but for something that might spend 20-30 years (or more) maturing I don't believe that a screw top offers the best protection against oxidation.

Marc

Agreed Marc. I've read that screw tops have about the same percentage of problems as corks do, about 1-3%. These issues are due to a seal that doesn't seal all the way, the cap was put on wrong by the machine and not caught in the bottling line, the cap gets slightly unscrewed by someone twisting it (but not enough to break the seal), the bottle itself has a defect and causes issues interfacing with the screw top, etc. I think we're still a long way off from a perfect system. Until then corks have proven their effectiveness for long term storage, so I'll stick with that for now.

[Steve E.]

How about the Vino Seal by Alcoa?

A local winery is using them on their red wines. They have both an acrylic and a glass 'stopper' to choose from. The key appears to be the o-ring and how it will hold up over time:

http://www.nwtotemcellars.com/index.php ... &Itemid=59

[Andy Velebil]

How about the Vino Seal by Alcoa?

A local winery is using them on their red wines. They have both an acrylic and a glass 'stopper' to choose from. The key appears to be the o-ring and how it will hold up over time:

http://www.nwtotemcellars.com/index.php ... &Itemid=59

I've heard that one has issues too. Especially if the bottle neck is not 100% perfect or if the o-ring doesn't seat properly.

[Brian C.]

What about a wine bottle with a bottle cap?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wiGAAHG0O1A

[Peter W. Meek]

What about a wine bottle with a bottle cap?

Crown caps and screw caps have one serious disadvantage over corks (natural and synthetic): if they are bumped hard enough, they will distort and leak. The thin, molded-on screw caps you see on pop bottles will do this with a very light impact. How will a bottle of port that has to be stored for years, and maybe get moved several times, survive this?

Crown caps can be made much thicker, and just might be the answer. At one time, crown caps even had cork seals (usually ground and compressed) that might fill some of the functions of a natural cork. However, the negative connotations of such a seal might make even considering crown caps impossible. Plus, the whole point of this is to avoid the problems associated with natural cork.

[Eric Menchen]

What about a wine bottle with a bottle cap?

A lot of specialty beers are actually corked with a bottle cap on top of that. I'm not exactly sure what this is supposed to accomplish.

[Moses Botbol]

What about a wine bottle with a bottle cap?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wiGAAHG0O1A

I've seen Proseco like that. I had an Anchor Christmas Ale that I aged for 4 years that had a bottle cap and the beer was perfect...

[Peter W. Meek]

What about a wine bottle with a bottle cap?

A lot of specialty beers are actually corked with a bottle cap on top of that. I'm not exactly sure what this is supposed to accomplish.

The cork for the seal; the crown cap to prevent the pressure from expelling the cork, like the basket on a champagne bottle.

(WOW!!! Either FTLOP has added a spell checker or Google Chrome browser checks all typing. Have to go do some experimenting.)

[Moses Botbol]

The cork for the seal; the crown cap to prevent the pressure from expelling the cork, like the basket on a champagne bottle.

I doubt a crown cap will prevent spoil if the cork is faulty.

[Eric Menchen]

The cork for the seal; the crown cap to prevent the pressure from expelling the cork, like the basket on a champagne bottle.

I should have gotten more sleep last night. That makes perfect sense.

[Chris Pfeiffer]

Good morning, my first post for the love of port.
I am a producer of fortified wine in Rutherglen Australia and one of the wine styles we make is fortified sweet red from the classic varieties of Touriga Nacional, Tinta Barocca, Tinta Cao and Tinta Roriz.
In 2004 we placed our first vintage under screw cap (we prefer not to use cork as a closure) and, for interest sake we put a small quantity under high quality cork.
Our primary reason for moving away from cork was the variable rates of oxygen ingress into the bottle and the consequent variabilty in ageing. (eg There is no such thing as a great wine, only a great bottle.).
Our experience with ageing wines under screw cap (we have wines from the late 1970s) shows that they do retain a fresher character, and they do mature in bottle. The best performing corks, in my view, allow the least ingress of oxygen, so I often say that the best corks perform as well as a screw cap.
It is too early to make a call on the difference between the the 2004 wine under cork and screw cap. I tasted the wines a couple of months ago, and the wine under screw cap was fresher and less integrated. This all leads me to believe that maturation will be slower under screw cap.
Our belief about screw cap is further expended on our website, http://www.pfeifferwines.com.au in the FAQs section.
So, yes I would buy a VP under screw cap as do our customers.
Chris Pfeiffer

[Andy Velebil]

Chris,

(i so wanted to use our new icon) it's great to have another producer with us. Insight from producers is always welcome. But I gotta warn you this can be a tough, but fun loving and well meaning crowd when it comes to ports from other regions. So don't take anything to seriously

The best performing corks, in my view, allow the least ingress of oxygen, so I often say that the best corks perform as well as a screw cap.

Interesting. May I inquire why then you don't just use high quality corks instead of screw caps? Is it the cost? or are screw caps easier to deal with?

Was there something that was the catalyst that made you originally switch over to using screw caps?

I know lots of questions, but I am very curious to know these types of things (and I'm sure many of our readers are too).

Again, it great to have yo join us and I hope you chime in regularly.

[Eric Ifune]

Chris,
I would like to welcome you as well!

[Chris Pfeiffer]

Thanks for the welcome Andy and Eric.
We did buy the most expensive corks available (hand selected). As mentioned our major issue was not cork taint, but random oxidation (RO). Even in these expensive corks we saw RO.
As a winemaker I am hoping that there will be consistency from bottle to bottle, and the end user will be enjoying the wine in the manner you expect. Cork was not delivering this result.
We used to run a maturation programme at our winery and release a chardonnay and a red at 10 years of age. We found that the cull rate on these wines at 10 years was around 30%, ie 30% we were not prepared to sell because thay had developed too much (some maderized). The remaining 70% still had much variation. This was easy to do with the white wines as you could do it on colour, a little more difficult with the reds. There was another company in Aus doing the same programme and their cull rate at 5 years was around 30%.
That company still runs their programme, but now matures under screw cap with a significant reduction in the cull rate.
There is nothing more frustrating than when we run a wine dinner, having to open twice as many bottles of mature wines of the same type to ensure that all the attendees are drinking a similar wine.
It happens with fortified wine as well as table wine.
How many of you have opened 2 or 3 bottles of the same vintage port (ie the same wine) and seen noticeable differences?
We believe that screw cap will reduce the incidence of this.
Yes, screw caps are significantly cheaper than hand selected corks. However, cork is a very forgiving closure when it comes to insertion. You must have more attention to application of screw caps as there is less room for error.
There will still be differences between bottles but that will be application and bottling driven, not related to the permeability of the cork. The AWRI in Australia has measured sigbnificant differences in the permeability of corks.
Some producers in Australia have gone to Diam closures, which are reconstituted cork closures. We do use these closures on red table wine for China, simply because thay want a cork closure (its about the romance).
We are looking forward with great anticipation to 2014, when we can open 10 year old fortified red under the different seals.
There was the myth that the New World were sent the rejects (something I did not believe).
Two years ago we had a trainee from the Dao Region work for us. We had two different bottles of White Port that had been brought back from Porto in a suit case. Both bottles were tainted, can you believe our luck.
It happens in the home of cork as well.
Lucky we like to drink port from a decanter so we don't have to worry about our fellow imbibers seeing the cork come out.
Hope that this is helpful.
Cheers
Chris Pfeiffer

[Eric Menchen]

Thanks so much for the insight Chris, and welcome to !

[Peter W. Meek]

... You must have more attention to application of screw caps as there is less room for error....

A question I have always wanted to ask of someone who knows: When you put a screw cap on a bottle, are the cap threads pre-formed, or do you begin with a smooth cap and force the metal into the glass threads on the bottle without turning the cap? I know you have to crimp the lock ring after installing the cap, so maybe the threads are formed in place as well. Can you tell us? Most screw-capped bottles (all?) have an indexing notch on the base somewhere, so hard dies could be used to form the threads and be sure of hitting the bottle threads accurately. Do you have to give the cap a final twist to get uniform sealing after thread forming? (I'm running this process in my head, as though I was designing a machine to do the job, trying to anticipate all the problems.)

A last note on screw caps: I rarely drink Port straight from the bottle, but with some other beverages I notice that I really hate drinking from a bottle with threads. They tend to dribble.

[Peter W. Meek]

...Our belief about screw cap is further expended on our website,
http://www.pfeifferwines.com.au,in the FAQs section....

Please edit this post to put a space after the ".au" so the link will work properly. Nice site, BTW.

[Roy Hersh]

Peter,

Thanks for the heads up. I wound up fixing the link to Chris' website.




Chris,

It is great to have you here and get a different perspective on port and Port too. I hope you will do us a favor so more people who are not checking this particular thread, will get to know you. On the PORT BASICS area, the first thread is for people to introduce themselves "officially" and it would be great if you'd share some basic info about your Port or port passion. That would be most appreciated. Again, welcome aboard!

Roy

[Chris Pfeiffer]

Good morning,
Thanks for fixing the website.
For the record, I don't drink Port from the bottle!
The screw cap seal. The seal in the screw cap is in fact the wadding within the top of the cap. It is a laminated wad made up of (from the wine side) a layer that does not taint the wine, ie is quite neutral. The second layer is the metallic layer (silver colour) which prevents oxygen ingress in to the wine. The third layer is a spongy type material. The seal is acheived by screwing the cap on, so that you squash the wadding onto the top of the bottle. The seal is the connection between the top of the bottle and the wadding.
The cap comes to the bottling plant without the thread, and is put on the bottle with a threading machine, consequently each cap matches its bottle. It is while putting on the cap that the seal is acheived.
Screw cap technology has come a long way since the introduction days of the early 70s.
Regards Chris