Wine Cellars

[K Hart]

Hello all. I am new here, I subscribed...I think last night? I am shopping for a wine cellar. I have had a certain degree of need for one for a while but until recently having one would have been more of a luxury than a necessity. I am currently storing my wines in Styrofoam shippers in a closet that does a good job at keeping the temperature constant, but now I just have too much wine for this to work any more. Also a recent addition of a 2011 Quinta do Noval nacional to my cellar has accelerated my search for one, to get such an expensive bottle that I will be cellaring a very long time into some kind of proper storage.

When I have shopped previously I went around in circles trying to figure out exactly which one I wanted. I spent some time looking on Amazon earlier today and it makes me nervous to just buy one off of there not knowing anything about it. Does anyone have any recommendations for brand/model? I am looking for something that will hold 80-100 bottles, is quiet and vibrates very little.

In some of the product descriptions I read today, many seem to indicate that they kick on once the temperature is 4 degrees above whatever the setting is - this makes me a bit nervous that my wine may be bouncing 4 degrees back and forth all day, when I may be better off leaving my bottles in a Styrofoam shipper that takes days to change internal temperature of the magnitude.

If anyone has any recommendations that would provide me with peace of mind in my decision, it would be much appreciated.

I apologize if this isn't the correct forum.

[Moses Botbol]

I am proponent of natural cellars whenever possible.

What is your locale? Vinotemp is big brand.

I have a basic Home Depot wine fridge in my kitchen, but that is not for long term storage and I also use it to store chocolate, salami, and hard cheese.

[Glenn E.]

I have three fridges and I've never noticed them varying in temp by more than 1 degree. They're very constant in my experience.

I have a Eurocave for my long-term VPs, an ArteVino by Eurocave for medium term stuff, and a cheap no brand fridge for short term and tawnies. All three hold temp very constant. The main difference us that the no brand fridge uses a compressor so it vibrates ever so slightly. The other two use heat pumps.

[Eric Ifune]

Also remember that air temperature is different than the wine temperature. The wine and bottles will have considerable thermal mass, so the liquid temps will have much less temperature swings than the air.

[Gary Richardson]

I have a Eurocave that I have been very happy with, after some initial shelf-adjustment problems that were quickly resolved. I use this for VPs, some LBVs, Tawnies and Colheitas. I also have a 52 bottle GE wine fridge that I store some LBVs in and have been happy with it. However, that one is not for long-term storage. I use my Eurocave for that. The compressor in the GE is loud, but the Eurocave is whisper quiet. Both maintain a reliably constant temperature.

-- Gary

[K Hart]

Thank you all. Eurocave and vinotemp seem to be the winners. I live in Anchorage. During the winter a consistent cellar temperature is fairly feasible to maintain - if the cellar is strategically placed. Humidity however is almost impossible to maintain as the natural humidity in the winter air is already quite low and then heating it dilutes it down farther. My humidifier - with a humidistat set at 40% will take about 1.5 Gallons of water per day to only seldom achieve 40% - it is more typical that it just runs all the time. During the summer temperature is difficult to maintain when it the outside temperature swing can be 40 degrees within the same week and 15 degree shifts are common. Air conditioning is not common - none of my apartments have had it at least.

For those of you that recommended vinotemp or eurocave: Are the shelves designed to hold champagne/burgundy bottles? I have seen a fairly common crisis among other champagne and pinot drinkers that shelves in a wine rack aren't made for the fatter bottles and suck away bottle capacity - if the bottles will even fit on the shelf. I am going to take a look around town to see if anyone in Anchorage had anything, but have very slim hope of being able to touch anything and see if some fat bottles will fit in them.

[Moses Botbol]

Thank you all. Eurocave and vinotemp seem to be the winners. I live in Anchorage. During the winter a consistent cellar temperature is fairly feasible to maintain - if the cellar is strategically placed. Humidity however is almost impossible to maintain as the natural humidity in the winter air is already quite low and then heating it dilutes it down farther.

I wouldn't worry on the humidity too much. Winter humidity in my cellar is pretty low too and wines I have aged the longest, 15+ years, the corks are still fantastic as are the wines. Adding a humidifier in the winter is not a big deal if it is that important.

[Glenn E.]

Most fridge shelves are made for "standard" Bordeaux bottles unless they specifically say otherwise. Depending on the brand it may or may not be possible to get shelves designed for champagne, pinot, etc. But since the fridge size is fixed it definitely will affect total storage capacity.

[Rob C.]

For those of you that recommended vinotemp or eurocave: Are the shelves designed to hold champagne/burgundy bottles?

If you are going for the sliding shelves rather than the fixed shelf system on the eurocave, then the shelves are "universal" (described here).

I seem to recall that i could only fit 11 bottles of larger champagne bottles on a single shelf, though split between two shelves I could fit 2 x 6 bottles of champagne and 2 x 6 port / bdx shaped bottles.

[Glenn E.]

If you are going for the sliding shelves rather than the fixed shelf system on the eurocave, then the shelves are "universal" (described here).

Those new shelves are pretty cool. Unfortunately I have the older ACUP (discontinued) rolling shelf which isn't quite as "universal" as the new one. I still easily manage 12 bottles per shelf, but they don't always lie in neat ordered rows if the producer didn't use a standard Port/Bordeaux bottle.

[Eric Menchen]

Also remember that air temperature is different than the wine temperature. The wine and bottles will have considerable thermal mass, so the liquid temps will have much less temperature swings than the air.

Eric is correct in that the air temp will swing more than the bottles. However, my chilling unit, and I think many of them, have a temperature probe that is sealed and comes with a stopper, with the intent that you put it in a bottle with liquid. The instructions for my chiller say to fill the bottle 3/4 full. At the time I put it in a 375ml bottle. Now I have a more elaborate setup, with an internet connected control board with multiple temperature sensors and a humidity sensor as well.

[Alan McDonald]

If you are serious about storing more than half a dozen bottles just build one. Beyond that half dozen, which can be kept in a domestic fridge - even red wines and Ports will be better kept at a constant low temperature than a fluctuating higher one (and I expect a few arguments about that remark) it will be cheaper to build something on a concrete base, using blocks, insulation and waterproofing material rather than buying some electirc gizmo. It does not have to be "walk-in". Measure a case, multiply by two to give you 24 bottles of storage, build around that and insulate. Insulation is very, very important, especially where you live. If you intend to store more then build bigger.

On my sheep/cattle property in Australia it rarely dropped below freezing point but was well over 100ºF every summer. We had a tin shed about 6 by 6 feet inside and surrounded by about a foot of charcoal. Kept wet that shed was better than any electric storage. Here, I am fortunate in having a proper cellar/wine making area under the house and into the bedrock.

[Andy Velebil]

Avoid Vinotemp. They have a reputation for poor customer service at all levels and they have a very new non-disparagement clause in their buying contract. Basically they can sue you if you say anything negative about the product or company. I will never due business with such a company. Do an internet search of that clause as there is a huge amount of info from a few different wine websites talking about them and this new clause.

[Moses Botbol]

Avoid Vinotemp. They have a reputation for poor customer service at all levels and they have a very new non-disparagement clause in their buying contract.

If you bought a Vinotemp used or new (and did not sign a form); how can they hold you to that clause?

[Andy Velebil]

Avoid Vinotemp. They have a reputation for poor customer service at all levels and they have a very new non-disparagement clause in their buying contract.

If you bought a Vinotemp used or new (and did not sign a form); how can they hold you to that clause?

If you bought it new, it's enforceable. Another company has already done it and Vinotemp took their contract clause and are now using it.

[Moses Botbol]

If you bought it new, it's enforceable. Another company has already done it and Vinotemp took their contract clause and are now using it.

Does seller make you sign something when buying it? I wouldn't sign it. Then again, I don't intend to buy a fancy wine fridge.

[Glenn E.]

Avoid Vinotemp. They have a reputation for poor customer service at all levels and they have a very new non-disparagement clause in their buying contract.

If you bought a Vinotemp used or new (and did not sign a form); how can they hold you to that clause?

If you bought it new, it's enforceable. Another company has already done it and Vinotemp took their contract clause and are now using it.

How is that enforceable?

If I don't sign a contract or verbally agree to the terms (for which they'd have to show proof), there isn't a contract so there's nothing to enforce. You can't create a binding contract out of thin air simply by including some pieces of paper in with the fridge that I purchased.

All it's going to take is for one company to sue the wrong person over this kind of crap and the ACLU will take it straight to the Supreme Court.

[Andy Velebil]

If you bought a Vinotemp used or new (and did not sign a form); how can they hold you to that clause?

If you bought it new, it's enforceable. Another company has already done it and Vinotemp took their contract clause and are now using it.

How is that enforceable?

If I don't sign a contract or verbally agree to the terms (for which they'd have to show proof), there isn't a contract so there's nothing to enforce. You can't create a binding contract out of thin air simply by including some pieces of paper in with the fridge that I purchased.

All it's going to take is for one company to sue the wrong person over this kind of crap and the ACLU will take it straight to the Supreme Court.

There has already been another company who's won a judgement against a person. So apparently it is enforceable.

[Moses Botbol]

There has already been another company who's won a judgement against a person. So apparently it is enforceable.

They probably signed the clause, but what if the comments are factual? That is not necessarily defaming. "My Vinotemp caught on fire", for instance. Just stating what happened is different, than "Vinotemp's can be a fire hazard".

[Glenn E.]

There has already been another company who's won a judgement against a person. So apparently it is enforceable.

They probably signed the clause, but what if the comments are factual? That is not necessarily defaming. "My Vinotemp caught on fire", for instance. Just stating what happened is different, than "Vinotemp's can be a fire hazard".

That would be my guess as well. If you've signed something, then sure it's enforceable.

But I didn't sign anything other than a credit card receipt when purchasing either of my 2 good fridges. (The 3rd was used, so it wouldn't apply regardless.) Of course, mine aren't Vinotemps so it doesn't matter, but like Andy I'd avoid any company that puts such a ridiculous clause into any of their documents, whether it's enforceable or not. That's just a sign of a bad company and they should be avoided entirely.