Recently, we have seen an influx of women here on the FTLOP Forum. In the past there have been three or four that have popped in temporarily to ask a question or two and then they have disappeared.
With the addition of Jane, Sarah, Gabriella, Monique and Jan in the past few weeks, I am wondering why all of a sudden women are signing up on our Forum, especially during warmer months?
I am very pleased with this development as it is always difficult to find women who are willing to contribute to wine forums, more so when they are not annonymous. I hope they'll continue to be contributors here and today I noticed one of the gals had said she'd be participating in the Virtual Tasting Room event for August. What a great milestone and I thank these ladies for joining us here and contributing. Whether rank beginners or experts ... and anywhere in between, it really rounds out the Forum and provides a different perspective.
I wish there was a way to get even more participation from women who appreciate Port & Madeira or at least are looking to learn more. When I go to consumer tastings in Canada and the USA, I am always thrilled to see that there are so many women in attendance. This is not meant as a sexist statement, just a matter of fact.
The stigma attached to Port as a drink enjoyed by a bunch of cigar smoking men, sitting around in a club and passing the decanter is quite antiquated. Now how to attract even more women to actually stop lurking and start posting as given the number of women who have signed up for the Forum & Newletter, the turnout here on the Forum is still quite limited.
Your thoughts?
WOMEN & PORT
Moderators: Glenn E., Roy Hersh, Andy Velebil
WOMEN & PORT
Last edited by Roy Hersh on Fri Aug 03, 2007 1:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Ambition driven by passion, rather than money, is as strong an elixir as is Port. http://www.fortheloveofport.com
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Andy Velebil
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Roy,The stigma attached to Port as a drink enjoyed by a bunch of cigar smoking men, sitting around in a club and passing the decanter is quite antiquated.
that single sentance summed it up. Even with my friends, most are in their early twentys to mid thirties, have this opinion of Port and brandy/cognac too. Its slowly giving way, but those stigmas can take a long time to subside.
Andy Velebil Good wine is a good familiar creature if it be well used. William Shakespeare http://www.fortheloveofport.com
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SEAN C.
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Maybe it's just me but I find that most women I know don't like Port ..even great vintage bottles...I have heard "too sweet" as the reason for dislike many times! Personally I would have imagined it would be the exact opposite. Most women I know drink white wine or Champagne, with US or Australian reds in second place, third French reds, and after that Vodka over Port!
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Todd Pettinger
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Although my wife enjoys the occasional glass of Port, I suspect that Sean is pretty close to nailing it: most do not like it or find it too sweet to drink as often as I like to indulge in it.
One could likely go into deep philosophical, differences between women and men and the way they think, but I think one of the reasons we don't (and likely will not ever) see more women becoming regular contributors is partially due to the stigma you refer to (of port being an old man's drink) but also due to the function of this website. This website brings together a small segment of the community at large - people who truly have a passion about a very specific type of wine - it isn't even wine in general, but PORT wine. (Most folks I know would not even be so passionate or knowledgeable enough about wine in general, nevermind one specific type of wine!)
The following statement may sound on the surface a bit generalized, but being in the profession I am in (computer geek) I see dozens, if not hundreds of examples of this per year so my sample data is large enough to back up a generalization:
MOST women use computers to accomplish a specific task or set of tasks. Tasks at work. Email. Surf the internet for a specific thing (shopping, look up info, etc.) Use social networking tools (facebook, chat rooms, Messenger tools -yahoo, msn, IRC chat), etc.
I think males in general have a less cohesive train of thoughts - one that is linear but easily distractable. We could start one task but focus shifts quickly and easily. One task bleeds loosely into another, but most males I know can't easily juggle multiple tasks and accomplish them all simultaneously. It's just in the way our brains are different. The only reason I bring this up is that most males that discover this site, that have a decent passion for Port would want to participate in the forum simply for the fact that when a male discovers something new and 'cool' they focus in on it intently for a period of time... possibly why the FTLOP forum will see certain individuals that will actively participate for a period of time, but eventually, the newness and shininess will wear off and they will slowly migrate away, whereas during the initial discovery phase, our brains will draw us back to the one topic (in this case, the FTLOP Forum) in a linear fashion.
If they were googling information on a topic, MOST women would not go through the process of registering (especially real names, which I'll deal with in just a second) on a forum such as this as it is a very specialized topic. If they are looking for specific information, and could not find it in a simple search, most would just 'Back' up and follow the next link google presented to them.
MOST would not be interested in joining an online community and have the time to commit to participating in an active role. This may not just apply to women, but men as well, as evidenced by the significant differential between total # of registered users and those that participate actively in the forum on a regular basis.
Which brings up another consideration, which would be the fact that in a previously male-dominated world, where the men would literally retire to the den or drawing room and start passing the decanter of port around, women would not have as much experience with port (or wine in many cases) as most men. It is important to realize that perhaps subconciously due to the fact that many females feel physically threatened by typically dominant males, I would suspect that the broad majority of females feel less confidant on sharing thoughts on port or sharing personal information over the computer than their male counterparts and therefore would not easily participate actively in a forum such as FTLOP.
***This generalization is not meant to be sexist, but does take into account historical roles played by males vs females. These types of deeply-imbedded cultural differences sometimes can take decades, if not centuries to change.
It also does not take into account that the majority of kids growing up nowadays are fully fluent with computers by the time they are teens, and many at a much younger age. This will certainly change the demographics of the Internet in the decades to come, and the more confidant females will feel towards their lives in general and in particular, their computers, the more participation I would suspect would be present in more specialized topics such as the FTLOP forum.
One last point of consideration is how busy people are in their lives. Even I find it very difficult to stay up to date and continue participating as much as I have in the past few months. I suspect that while many males feel a sense of camaraderie in sharing port experiences with each other, this may be, in fact DUE TO the fact that most women do not share our LOVE of port and therefore would have no interest in participating in a Port forum if they did not enjoy it as much as we did. Hell, I bet most of us have friends that enjoy imbibing with us in Port but really wouldn't consider seriously becoming an active member on a forum like this.
This jumble of thoughts
certainly is not meant to discourage other females from posting here - quite the opposite, I suspect that a couple more women on the forum would certainly change the flavour of the forum, and that would be a good thing... however, my gut feeling tells me that most females would look at this as a site that male geeks would hang out and they would leave us to our own devices - to discuss our Port while they enjoy other things in their lives.
Todd
One could likely go into deep philosophical, differences between women and men and the way they think, but I think one of the reasons we don't (and likely will not ever) see more women becoming regular contributors is partially due to the stigma you refer to (of port being an old man's drink) but also due to the function of this website. This website brings together a small segment of the community at large - people who truly have a passion about a very specific type of wine - it isn't even wine in general, but PORT wine. (Most folks I know would not even be so passionate or knowledgeable enough about wine in general, nevermind one specific type of wine!)
The following statement may sound on the surface a bit generalized, but being in the profession I am in (computer geek) I see dozens, if not hundreds of examples of this per year so my sample data is large enough to back up a generalization:
MOST women use computers to accomplish a specific task or set of tasks. Tasks at work. Email. Surf the internet for a specific thing (shopping, look up info, etc.) Use social networking tools (facebook, chat rooms, Messenger tools -yahoo, msn, IRC chat), etc.
I think males in general have a less cohesive train of thoughts - one that is linear but easily distractable. We could start one task but focus shifts quickly and easily. One task bleeds loosely into another, but most males I know can't easily juggle multiple tasks and accomplish them all simultaneously. It's just in the way our brains are different. The only reason I bring this up is that most males that discover this site, that have a decent passion for Port would want to participate in the forum simply for the fact that when a male discovers something new and 'cool' they focus in on it intently for a period of time... possibly why the FTLOP forum will see certain individuals that will actively participate for a period of time, but eventually, the newness and shininess will wear off and they will slowly migrate away, whereas during the initial discovery phase, our brains will draw us back to the one topic (in this case, the FTLOP Forum) in a linear fashion.
If they were googling information on a topic, MOST women would not go through the process of registering (especially real names, which I'll deal with in just a second) on a forum such as this as it is a very specialized topic. If they are looking for specific information, and could not find it in a simple search, most would just 'Back' up and follow the next link google presented to them.
MOST would not be interested in joining an online community and have the time to commit to participating in an active role. This may not just apply to women, but men as well, as evidenced by the significant differential between total # of registered users and those that participate actively in the forum on a regular basis.
Which brings up another consideration, which would be the fact that in a previously male-dominated world, where the men would literally retire to the den or drawing room and start passing the decanter of port around, women would not have as much experience with port (or wine in many cases) as most men. It is important to realize that perhaps subconciously due to the fact that many females feel physically threatened by typically dominant males, I would suspect that the broad majority of females feel less confidant on sharing thoughts on port or sharing personal information over the computer than their male counterparts and therefore would not easily participate actively in a forum such as FTLOP.
***This generalization is not meant to be sexist, but does take into account historical roles played by males vs females. These types of deeply-imbedded cultural differences sometimes can take decades, if not centuries to change.
It also does not take into account that the majority of kids growing up nowadays are fully fluent with computers by the time they are teens, and many at a much younger age. This will certainly change the demographics of the Internet in the decades to come, and the more confidant females will feel towards their lives in general and in particular, their computers, the more participation I would suspect would be present in more specialized topics such as the FTLOP forum.
One last point of consideration is how busy people are in their lives. Even I find it very difficult to stay up to date and continue participating as much as I have in the past few months. I suspect that while many males feel a sense of camaraderie in sharing port experiences with each other, this may be, in fact DUE TO the fact that most women do not share our LOVE of port and therefore would have no interest in participating in a Port forum if they did not enjoy it as much as we did. Hell, I bet most of us have friends that enjoy imbibing with us in Port but really wouldn't consider seriously becoming an active member on a forum like this.
This jumble of thoughts
certainly is not meant to discourage other females from posting here - quite the opposite, I suspect that a couple more women on the forum would certainly change the flavour of the forum, and that would be a good thing... however, my gut feeling tells me that most females would look at this as a site that male geeks would hang out and they would leave us to our own devices - to discuss our Port while they enjoy other things in their lives.Todd
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Moses Botbol
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Port is too sweet for most women's palette. The cigar smoking men, passing the decanter around is at least an appropriate stereotype at my house, lol… Madeira satisfies women's palette more than port. It’s sweet, but does not have the sugariness of port; at least my girl friend really likes Madeira and sherry more than port. Not to sound sexist, but one has to think of what a woman’s first port may have been and they have since become fickle on this tipple. Like you tried something that you did not like and refuse to try it again- even if you knew what you tried before is not a good example…
Port houses, importers, distributors, and B&M’s have market and educate all consumers and properly enjoying port and a natural influx of women buyers and enthusiasts grow to all our benefit.
Port houses, importers, distributors, and B&M’s have market and educate all consumers and properly enjoying port and a natural influx of women buyers and enthusiasts grow to all our benefit.
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I have no idea if and why women do not drink port as much as men. I don't know many men or women who drink it but that is mainly due to lack of exposure and high prices (especially in the UK).
I have started to get into port due to the low cost of the drink here and because as a whole I like to try lots of alcohol
The forum probably does need more women but as it is so heavily male-dominated that may be difficult. I find it hard because I am a total novice port drinker - maybe if there was more advice for beginners it may help.
Thanks
Sarah
I have started to get into port due to the low cost of the drink here and because as a whole I like to try lots of alcohol
The forum probably does need more women but as it is so heavily male-dominated that may be difficult. I find it hard because I am a total novice port drinker - maybe if there was more advice for beginners it may help.
Thanks
Sarah
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Frederick Blais
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Correct me women if I'm wrong, but here is what I think about the topic.
First let me say that over the history, women was staying at home and the men was bringing the big money. He had the control on how to spend it as the women was staying home taking care of the house and children.
It is something recent that women are able to spend their money as they wish as they are free from house and do have a job that brings back money. With their money, I think their priority are different than man. Because of traditions or different interest? one thing is sure is that if you ask your wife if she'd like a bottle of Taylor or a new dress, ring or shoes. The answer is quite obvious. Not that she doesn't like port, just a priority dictated with publicity mainly.
On the other side, most women are more sensitive than man with their taste. It is very common that a friend of mine tells me that she does not like port because it is too strong, taste too much alcohol... Of course this is just bad port and bad experience. When I make them taste mine, they love it and take a 2nd glass.
Finally, if a man can absorb a bottle of Port on his own on one night, we can't say the same with women(most of them) so if she owns port, she'll have to think on which occasion she'd open it. Just like us with our magnums
First let me say that over the history, women was staying at home and the men was bringing the big money. He had the control on how to spend it as the women was staying home taking care of the house and children.
It is something recent that women are able to spend their money as they wish as they are free from house and do have a job that brings back money. With their money, I think their priority are different than man. Because of traditions or different interest? one thing is sure is that if you ask your wife if she'd like a bottle of Taylor or a new dress, ring or shoes. The answer is quite obvious. Not that she doesn't like port, just a priority dictated with publicity mainly.
On the other side, most women are more sensitive than man with their taste. It is very common that a friend of mine tells me that she does not like port because it is too strong, taste too much alcohol... Of course this is just bad port and bad experience. When I make them taste mine, they love it and take a 2nd glass.
Finally, if a man can absorb a bottle of Port on his own on one night, we can't say the same with women(most of them) so if she owns port, she'll have to think on which occasion she'd open it. Just like us with our magnums
Living the dream and now working for a Port company
Amen. I agree that generalizing is fraught with errors, whether about women & Port or most other topics. I appreciate everyone's comments here and give kudos to Sarah for joining in the discussion.
Sarah, you mentioned about it being tough because you are new here and to Port. Please feel free to ask ANY question you'd like on the Port Basics area of the Forum. Nothing is too simple and many here started as rank beginners a year or two ago!
So do not let anybody intimidate you here. I do my very best to keep this website and Forum (and newsletter) "snob free" and I hope you will feel even more comfortable here as you learn more about this wonderful drink.
By the way, do you enjoy Madeira?
Sarah, you mentioned about it being tough because you are new here and to Port. Please feel free to ask ANY question you'd like on the Port Basics area of the Forum. Nothing is too simple and many here started as rank beginners a year or two ago!
So do not let anybody intimidate you here. I do my very best to keep this website and Forum (and newsletter) "snob free" and I hope you will feel even more comfortable here as you learn more about this wonderful drink.
By the way, do you enjoy Madeira?
Ambition driven by passion, rather than money, is as strong an elixir as is Port. http://www.fortheloveofport.com
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Dave Johnson
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Frederick Blais
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Moses Botbol
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xxxMonique Heinemans
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Welcome back young lady. Nice to have you here again Monique!
In fact, I went back to the original post and have added your name to the other women who have been here lately.
Is there a full moon? A blue moon? What is going on here.
I do agree that I have met MANY MANY women who like or love Port. Some even because it IS sweet.
In fact, I went back to the original post and have added your name to the other women who have been here lately.
Is there a full moon? A blue moon? What is going on here.
I do agree that I have met MANY MANY women who like or love Port. Some even because it IS sweet.
Ambition driven by passion, rather than money, is as strong an elixir as is Port. http://www.fortheloveofport.com
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Todd Pettinger
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- Location: Sherwood Park, Alberta, Canada
Yeah, I agree that generalizations can get us into trouble, but when I made my post, it was less about why women like port (because from my own experience, they like it just fine) and more about why women would not bother to post as much to a Forum dedicated to Port... 
My wife likes Port just fine, and the GOOD port very much. She may not know or even CARE to know the difference between the different producers and their styles, the price of a bottle (unless I am spending that price on said bottle!!!) or the history of Port and the Douro region (which I find fascinating) but she sure can tell me after two sips whether she likes a Port or not! :)
Todd
My wife likes Port just fine, and the GOOD port very much. She may not know or even CARE to know the difference between the different producers and their styles, the price of a bottle (unless I am spending that price on said bottle!!!) or the history of Port and the Douro region (which I find fascinating) but she sure can tell me after two sips whether she likes a Port or not! :)
Todd
This Women and Port thread can really spin in many directions (although the primary jist is what I'll stick to after this). Todd made an interesting point about his wife.
I don't mention my wonderful wife Dorene here on FTLOP too often, but this is the post to change that.
When we first met, Doe did not drink much wine and when she did, it mattered little what it was or where it was from. Today, she can explain the malolactic fermentation process,
in detail, and will typically nail a corked bottle of wine early on. She blames it on "osmosis" but at one time she really enjoyed the tastings, dinners, wine travel and learning about wine.
However, over the past 8 years she has attended so many functions and trade tastings and/or dinners that she is totally
fried by wine :blah:. Understand that means having no desire to join 80% of wine dinners that take place in our home. It is different if we have friends, relatives or out of town guests over for dinner, but if there is a themed event beyond the words "New Years Eve" she'd rather spend her time with our daughter.
As for Port, she has been to the *holy land* with me to enjoy Gaia, Porto and the Douro with our then 7 month old girl (who spoke her first words at a Lodge possessing the same name). Additionally, she's met many a Port personality and consumed more bottles with me than I should put in writing. Lately though, her enthusiasm for Port has seemed to be
waning and I can not explain why.
The most positive personal news I can say about Women & Port in my life, is that my daughter has continued her learning curve and surprises me at 4 1/2. Today I bought her some Concord grapes to explain the concept of "purest grape essence" to her. It was a wonderful time and watching her love tasting the "yukky stuff" when chewing the skins, laughing at the silky soft cocoon like pulp and enjoying watching her spitting the pips off of our back porch. As she is to inherit my Port/Madeira collection 
someday, she is certainly going to understand why it is special stuff.
Who knows, maybe someday she'll even be a "lurker" here!
I don't mention my wonderful wife Dorene here on FTLOP too often, but this is the post to change that.
When we first met, Doe did not drink much wine and when she did, it mattered little what it was or where it was from. Today, she can explain the malolactic fermentation process,
in detail, and will typically nail a corked bottle of wine early on. She blames it on "osmosis" but at one time she really enjoyed the tastings, dinners, wine travel and learning about wine.However, over the past 8 years she has attended so many functions and trade tastings and/or dinners that she is totally
fried by wine :blah:. Understand that means having no desire to join 80% of wine dinners that take place in our home. It is different if we have friends, relatives or out of town guests over for dinner, but if there is a themed event beyond the words "New Years Eve" she'd rather spend her time with our daughter.As for Port, she has been to the *holy land* with me to enjoy Gaia, Porto and the Douro with our then 7 month old girl (who spoke her first words at a Lodge possessing the same name). Additionally, she's met many a Port personality and consumed more bottles with me than I should put in writing. Lately though, her enthusiasm for Port has seemed to be
waning and I can not explain why. The most positive personal news I can say about Women & Port in my life, is that my daughter has continued her learning curve and surprises me at 4 1/2.
Today I bought her some Concord grapes to explain the concept of "purest grape essence" to her. It was a wonderful time and watching her love tasting the "yukky stuff" when chewing the skins, laughing at the silky soft cocoon like pulp and enjoying watching her spitting the pips off of our back porch. As she is to inherit my Port/Madeira collection someday, she is certainly going to understand why it is special stuff.Who knows, maybe someday she'll even be a "lurker" here!
Ambition driven by passion, rather than money, is as strong an elixir as is Port. http://www.fortheloveofport.com
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Scott Anaya
- Posts: 292
- Joined: Fri Dec 01, 2006 5:15 pm
- Location: Anchorage, Alaska, United States of America - USA
Roy,
Sometimes the apple falls far from the tree, and if by chance she does not take to Port, I will gladly be the first to step up and take inheritance of your Port colection :!:
With regards to women and Port I will only share my experience with the subject. My now wife has been with me for most of my Port discovery years (about 7 out of 9 years) Early on when we were dating she and I were very into discovering and learning about all wines including ports. About four years ago I noticed she had stopped having any port with me after dinner. Still, I would always offer her a taste of my glass, especially if it was something good. She always could tell right off if it was a high caliber port she was tasting as she has a pretty good knack for tasting the good stuff vs. value ports.
At some point about three years ago, right before we married she kept refusing a glass of a thirty or fourty year tawny I had opened. After my constant insistence, she finally blurted out that she really didn't like port THAT much and further admitted she had only been drinking it in our early dating years to amuse me and also try to share in a passion of mine.
Wow, I was stunned. Ultimately I am very much okay with this fact because my Port habit alone gets kind of spendy and since she only drinks and likes the very good stuff, we couldn't afford for that to be the case. In fact, during a recent trip to Ice Wine country in Niagara Canada, I'll admit I was kind of bummed that she took to loving ice wines since we now have to share those little 375 and 500 mL bottles--they don't go to far beyond a glass a piece and at $60 US a bottle, are not a part of our regular diet. But I love tasting them and sharing our thoughts on them as drinking and sharing a wine experience with someone is far better than drinking it alone-especially with very good wines.
I have many other women friends in their 30's who share a love of Port. One of them is always the first in our occassional VP tastings to match the best cheese and VP pairing. Another had a Port and Blue Cheese "cake" table at her wedding reception. I ended up "staffing" it to explain the 10 different choices to guests.
Finally, my wife calls my constant parusing of this website my "Port Porn" and I'll leave it at that.
Sometimes the apple falls far from the tree, and if by chance she does not take to Port, I will gladly be the first to step up and take inheritance of your Port colection
:!: With regards to women and Port I will only share my experience with the subject. My now wife has been with me for most of my Port discovery years (about 7 out of 9 years) Early on when we were dating she and I were very into discovering and learning about all wines including ports. About four years ago I noticed she had stopped having any port with me after dinner. Still, I would always offer her a taste of my glass, especially if it was something good. She always could tell right off if it was a high caliber port she was tasting as she has a pretty good knack for tasting the good stuff vs. value ports.
At some point about three years ago, right before we married she kept refusing a glass of a thirty or fourty year tawny I had opened. After my constant insistence, she finally blurted out that she really didn't like port THAT much and further admitted she had only been drinking it in our early dating years to amuse me and also try to share in a passion of mine.
Wow, I was stunned. Ultimately I am very much okay with this fact because my Port habit alone gets kind of spendy and since she only drinks and likes the very good stuff, we couldn't afford for that to be the case. In fact, during a recent trip to Ice Wine country in Niagara Canada, I'll admit I was kind of bummed that she took to loving ice wines since we now have to share those little 375 and 500 mL bottles--they don't go to far beyond a glass a piece and at $60 US a bottle, are not a part of our regular diet. But I love tasting them and sharing our thoughts on them as drinking and sharing a wine experience with someone is far better than drinking it alone-especially with very good wines.
I have many other women friends in their 30's who share a love of Port. One of them is always the first in our occassional VP tastings to match the best cheese and VP pairing. Another had a Port and Blue Cheese "cake" table at her wedding reception. I ended up "staffing" it to explain the 10 different choices to guests.
Finally, my wife calls my constant parusing of this website my "Port Porn" and I'll leave it at that.
Scott Anaya
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Steven Kooij
- Posts: 406
- Joined: Sun Jul 31, 2005 2:10 am
- Location: Amsterdam, Netherlands
Most of my female friends like Port as much as I do, but just don't feel like talking about as much as "we" do - same with dry wines: just look at the male / female members at eBob or WS.
BTW Roy, if the "Jan" you refer to in your initial post is member Jan Dams, I can assure you "she" is a man: it is a very common male first name in The Netherlands...
Monique! How good to see you coming out of hiding again. Make sure to let me know whenever you are in the area again: I would be more than happy to open a nice bottle and share it with you!
BTW Roy, if the "Jan" you refer to in your initial post is member Jan Dams, I can assure you "she" is a man: it is a very common male first name in The Netherlands...
Monique! How good to see you coming out of hiding again. Make sure to let me know whenever you are in the area again: I would be more than happy to open a nice bottle and share it with you!
Scott,
As long as your wife drinks Port on occasion and allows you to hang here on occasion and post when you feel like ... she is ok in my book!
Steven,
Er ... yes, that Jan. Yikes!
As long as your wife drinks Port on occasion and allows you to hang here on occasion and post when you feel like ... she is ok in my book!
Steven,
Er ... yes, that Jan. Yikes!
Ambition driven by passion, rather than money, is as strong an elixir as is Port. http://www.fortheloveofport.com