Tawnies with Indication of Age - When were they first produced?

[Eric Menchen]

It should be a weighted average. What, I put in 90% 10 year old and 10% 90 year old and I get to call it 50? No, that's 18.

Now I wonder, are there barrels of stuff being blended into the tawnies that they don't really know the age of? Are there records for everything going in? Registered with the IVDP? I agree that the category names are misleading, but I'm not sure how easily it can be changed given these kinds of issues. Is this just an esoteric discussion, and most of the TWIOA market is doing just fine? What they don't know isn't hurting them?

[Frederick Blais]

My understanding is that it's a style. And if you can achieve a 10yo tawny style by blending 5yo wines, you'll get your seal of IVDP and get your 10yo approved. Of course IVDP have investigators that is taking meticulous look at your Port stocks but in theory it could be possible!

I'll not name any producers, but I have a dozen in mind, but anyone notice a switch in style in the last 5 years? Especialy for the 10yo Tawny. I used to drink a lot of them, but now they seems to be more sugary and more fruitier, less complex, more Douro bake...Not my cup of tea anymore

[Tom Archer]

They should revamp the category to require the number on the label is a true minimum average age. For the vast majority of producers it's that case anyways, so it wouldn't be much of a change other than to a small amount of producers.

I have previously been told that ten year tawnies are typically nearer fifteen years old, that twenty year is normally in the right ball park, but that thirty and forty year differ widely, and that the forty years are rarely anywhere near forty years old.

Thirty year sales are also very low, so there does seem to be an excess of categories. I would suggest drawing a line under the present categories and launching a new series, with a strict requirement for observance of average age, but the style being otherwise left more to the discretion of the blenders than at present.

My suggested range would be:

15yr
25yr
40yr

The other alternative being to leave the ages entirely to the discretion of the producers, provided the average age rule is observed.

[Mike K.]

I noticed that Noval and Vale D Maria 40yo tawny’s both say “Over 40 Years Old” on the label.
I wonder if this is a true minimum age, or just vague marketing like many others.

[Eric Ifune]

The Over 40 years of age is just like any other category. As long as it passes the IVDP panel, it's legal.

[Andy Velebil]

I noticed that Noval and Vale D Maria 40yo tawny’s both say “Over 40 Years Old” on the label.
I wonder if this is a true minimum age, or just vague marketing like many others.

In the USA it has to say that, or at least it used to. Is/was a legal issue.

[Mike K.]

I noticed that Noval and Vale D Maria 40yo tawny’s both say “Over 40 Years Old” on the label.
I wonder if this is a true minimum age, or just vague marketing like many others.

In the USA it has to say that, or at least it used to. Is/was a legal issue.

I'm not sure I follow. Most of the tawny's I've seen are labeled "Aged XX Years".
But the two I mentioned above are labeled “Over XX Years Old”.
If it matters, the Vale D Maria was bought in the US, and the Noval was bought in PT.
Are both of these wordings allowed to be used with the previously discussed concept of "in the style of a XX year old"?
Or does the second wording actually have a more specific meaning with the regulations?

[Andy Velebil]

I noticed that Noval and Vale D Maria 40yo tawny’s both say “Over 40 Years Old” on the label.
I wonder if this is a true minimum age, or just vague marketing like many others.

In the USA it has to say that, or at least it used to. Is/was a legal issue.

I'm not sure I follow. Most of the tawny's I've seen are labeled "Aged XX Years".
But the two I mentioned above are labeled “Over XX Years Old”.
If it matters, the Vale D Maria was bought in the US, and the Noval was bought in PT.
Are both of these wordings allowed to be used with the previously discussed concept of "in the style of a XX year old"?
Or does the second wording actually have a more specific meaning with the regulations?

That's what my dumb arse gets for posting after being at work all night. I meant to say in the USA they should not say "over" as they have to have a specific year. Perhaps they changed it or perhaps these bottles came in gray market.

Who are the listed importer(s). If these are legit importers the real back label should have it pre-printed on it. If there's an extra slip label with the importer, good chance it came gray market.

[Mike K.]

That's what my dumb arse gets for posting after being at work all night. I meant to say in the USA they should not say "over" as they have to have a specific year. Perhaps they changed it or perhaps these bottles came in gray market.

Who are the listed importer(s). If these are legit importers the real back label should have it pre-printed on it. If there's an extra slip label with the importer, good chance it came gray market.

Thanks Andy!

I bought the Noval "40" at the Noval gift shop last fall. Apparently that wording is legal in PT?

The Vale D Maria was bought recently in MA, USA. The main back label says bottled 2016, and there is a normal looking importer label that states M.S.Walker, Inc. which is a well known importer, at least around here. I'll attach some pics ....

[Eric Menchen]

Andy is correct. The IVDP categories are 10, 20, 30, and over 40, recognizing that there isn't anything else after that like 50 or 60. If it tastes like 50 or 60 or anything older, it still falls in the over 40 category. Here's the regulation
http://www.ivdp.pt/pt/docs/legislacao/213.pdf
and relevant text:

As indicações de idade permitidas são:
a) 10 anos de idade;
b) 20 anos de idade;
c) 30 anos de idade;
d) Mais de 40 anos de idade ou 40 anos de idade quando o
vinho tenha como destino os EUA.

You can use google translate if you want. I'll summarize: The permitted labels are 10, 20, 30, more than 40, or 40 in the U.S.

[Eric Ifune]

Also, there's a trade agreement with the EU which allows some cross labeling.

[Tom Archer]

I'd like to see some of these radio carbon dated..

[Moses Botbol]

The Vale D Maria was bought recently in MA, USA. The main back label says bottled 2016, and there is a normal looking importer label that states M.S.Walker, Inc. which is a well known importer, at least around here. I'll attach some pics ....

How is it? I have a case of either 1994 or 2000 from them buried somewhere. Never tried one, but I like their dry wines. MS Walker has some port from the 80's in their warehouse, but they want all the money for it. I have been close at working a deal with them on it. I should try again!

[Mike K.]

How is it? I have a case of either 1994 or 2000 from them buried somewhere. Never tried one, but I like their dry wines.

The The Vale D Maria 40yo is excellent. Had the 20 and 40 at a tasting. The 20 was solid, but the 40 was something special.

MS Walker has some port from the 80's in their warehouse, but they want all the money for it. I have been close at working a deal with them on it. I should try again!

It's not doing anyone any good sitting in the warehouse.

[Moses Botbol]

MS Walker has some port from the 80's in their warehouse, but they want all the money for it. I have been close at working a deal with them on it. I should try again!

It's not doing anyone any good sitting in the warehouse.

Same with Carolina/Martignetti. They have some great 80's stuff sitting there for decades, but they won't budge on it. Next time I see someone from either distributor I should really amp up wanting to buy what remains.

[Frederick Blais]

I met Carlos Flores of Andresen 2 days ago and he is certain that Tawny with indication of age appeared on the market in the late 70's. Before, as you can still see on some bottles nowadays, it was a brand and you had to be aware of what brand holds what for each producer. For Andresen you can still see the brand on their bottle ex:(the Century on their 10yo, Royal choice for the 20yo...)

[Andy Velebil]

I met Carlos Flores of Andresen 2 days ago and he is certain that Tawny with indication of age appeared on the market in the late 70's. Before, as you can still see on some bottles nowadays, it was a brand and you had to be aware of what brand holds what for each producer. For Andresen you can still see the brand on their bottle ex:(the Century on their 10yo, Royal choice for the 20yo...)

That makes sense, as Sandeman had their "star" system for Ruby's and some others had odd names for their tawny and non-VP Ruby's.

[Tom Archer]

he is certain that Tawny with indication of age appeared on the market in the late 70's

And I am certain he is mistaken.

I have (or have had..)

Ferreira bottled in 1962, 1971 & 1972; Dow from 1973 and Niepoort from 1972..

..and this is not a category I major on..

[Andy Velebil]

he is certain that Tawny with indication of age appeared on the market in the late 70's

And I am certain he is mistaken.

I have (or have had..)

Ferreira bottled in 1962, 1971 & 1972; Dow from 1973 and Niepoort from 1972..

..and this is not a category I major on..

Well, it is the Douro. So I would assume someone made one back in 1517.....B.C.

[Glenn E.]

he is certain that Tawny with indication of age appeared on the market in the late 70's

And I am certain he is mistaken.

I have (or have had..)

Ferreira bottled in 1962, 1971 & 1972; Dow from 1973 and Niepoort from 1972..

..and this is not a category I major on..

Well, it is the Douro. So I would assume someone made one back in 1517.....B.C.

Didn't Taylor invent that category, too?