Do S. Leonardo tawny's decline faster than average?

[Mike K.]

I purchased about 8-10 bottles of S. Leonardo 40yo tawny a few years back direct from the importer. (2017 bottling date)
They have been drinking beautifully over the last couple years - always a standout and one of my favorites.

Two weeks ago I opened a bottle and it didn't seem right. It was tasty, but quite flat / muted - plus a bit rough and bitter.
More like a decent 20yo, rather than the usual spectacular bottle that easily holds its own with tawny's 40 years and older.

A week later I opened another bottle to see if this was an aberration. No, same thing!
I put the second bottle in a decanter for a few days. That took away the rough edges, and it is now sweet and smooth - but not even close to the richness and complexity I would expect.

All the bottles have been properly stored in a cool dark cellar since purchase.

Has anyone else experienced this? I know a tawny can decline after a number of years - but these are only 3 years old.

Thx for your thoughts.

[Thomas V]

I have had it happen with a S. Leonardo 40 anos bottled in 2016 I think it was and we drank it at a tasting in 2019. It was smelling not right and flat in taste. So I have had similar thoughts as you on the matter. This bottles was bought from a 2nd line supplier.

The ones I bought from BuyOp didnt have any problems, but were all drunk relatively quick. Only have 2 x 60 Anos white left. Perhaps I should be drinking them sooner rather than later (2017 bottling),

[Glenn E.]

I haven't experienced that, but like Thomas mine get consumed relatively quickly. My current supply started out as a case from the last buying op (the 2017 bottlings) and it's down to 2 bottles. I've opened at least 1 this year, possibly 2, and didn't notice anything out of the ordinary.

In general I feel like S. Leonardo tawnies can stand up to having been open for longer than most other brands. That usually corresponds to a Port that will handle bottle age better, but it's not an exact science.

[Andy Velebil]

My experience is they are best consumed within a few years of bottling for the best experience.

That is similar to most other tawny Ports on the market. Very few hold up or improve with bottle age. So this is not unique to S. Leonardo.

[Glenn E.]

My experience is they are best consumed within a few years of bottling for the best experience.

That is similar to most other tawny Ports on the market. Very few hold up or improve with bottle age. So this is not unique to S. Leonardo.

Yeah, but 3 years is on the early side especially for a 40 year old. I don't think any 40 year old should display significant decline after just 3 years. What he's describing sounds like 8-10 years in bottle, not 3!

[Andy Velebil]

My experience is they are best consumed within a few years of bottling for the best experience.

That is similar to most other tawny Ports on the market. Very few hold up or improve with bottle age. So this is not unique to S. Leonardo.

Yeah, but 3 years is on the early side especially for a 40 year old. I don't think any 40 year old should display significant decline after just 3 years. What he's describing sounds like 8-10 years in bottle, not 3!

I disagree. 3-4 years is at that point where most bottle aged tawny’s clearly start to show change from when they were bottled. It may not be much, depending on producer, but they do change.

I’ve had plenty of 30/40 S Leonardo tawny’s from several bottling years going back to 2011. From my experience, around the 3-4 year range is when I’ve detected change in these tawny’s. It’s not as much as a 8-9 year bottling but it is noticeable.

I think I’ve still got one 2011 40 yr bottling and it’s time to drink them. Those are now showing significant evolution.

How one likes the change or not is a matter of personal taste and not part of this discussion. As it should be avoided here.

Again, to be very clear, this isn’t just this producer but most of them for this type of product.

[Glenn E.]

My experience is they are best consumed within a few years of bottling for the best experience.

That is similar to most other tawny Ports on the market. Very few hold up or improve with bottle age. So this is not unique to S. Leonardo.

Yeah, but 3 years is on the early side especially for a 40 year old. I don't think any 40 year old should display significant decline after just 3 years. What he's describing sounds like 8-10 years in bottle, not 3!

I disagree. 3-4 years is at that point where most bottle aged tawny’s clearly start to show change from when they were bottled. It may not be much, depending on producer, but they do change.

I’ve had plenty of 30/40 S Leonardo tawny’s from several bottling years going back to 2011. From my experience, around the 3-4 year range is when I’ve detected change in these tawny’s. It’s not as much as a 8-9 year bottling but it is noticeable.

I think I’ve still got one 2011 40 yr bottling and it’s time to drink them. Those are now showing significant evolution.

How one likes the change or not is a matter of personal taste and not part of this discussion. As it should be avoided here.

Again, to be very clear, this isn’t just this producer but most of them for this type of product.

You're not disagreeing, you're saying something different. I said significant change. You're talking about detectable change. Those aren't the same thing.

What Mike's talking about is not some slight change that indicates a Port is starting to change from being in bottle. What he's talking about sounds significant, almost to the point of damaged. THAT is not normal at 3 years. And my bottles from the same buying opportunity are not showing what he describes.

Like I said before, what Mike describes sounds like it's been in bottle for 8-10 years, not 3.

[Mike K.]

You're not disagreeing, you're saying something different. I said significant change. You're talking about detectable change. Those aren't the same thing.

What Mike's talking about is not some slight change that indicates a Port is starting to change from being in bottle. What he's talking about sounds significant, almost to the point of damaged. THAT is not normal at 3 years. And my bottles from the same buying opportunity are not showing what he describes.

Like I said before, what Mike describes sounds like it's been in bottle for 8-10 years, not 3.

Thanks Glenn, precisely.

Of course a tawny is best enjoyed as close to the bottling date as possible. And much like groceries they have an understood "best by" timeframe. Folks here advise to not let them hang around longer than 3-5 years. Any tawny in my cellar that hits 3+ years is "on deck" to be opened as soon as possible.

If the wine had lost 10-20 percent of its awesome I could chalk that up to 3 years in the bottle. But Glenn is correct, what I am experiencing is a 50 percent loss in quality. My beloved Leonardo 40yo's are now drinking like an average 20yo tawny. That's pretty dramatic - and I am intrigued.

To be clear, I'm not here to bash a brand (that I adore). This is all about oenological curiosity and a fair warning to perhaps not sit on those Leonardo's.

Cheers!

[Andy Velebil]

The newer bottlings from him are not as great as the older ones (I’m not saying they aren’t great now, they are. But it is clear that base isn’t as old as before. that is a hard thing to convey via internet so don’t misunderstand me, I’m not knocking them in any way as I still love them). I suspect that is a byproduct of becoming more successful and selling lots more than in the past. At some point any producer has to change their blends to include more younger and less older as sales increase. There’s only so much really old stuff left out there.

I wonder if the faster decline in more recent bottlings is related to a different blend than the older ones??