I have always wanted to keep the FTLOP newsletter free of advertising and also, FREE of charge to all that wanted to read it.
Having recently done our first trip and seeing that it may not be a way to sustain a living, I am faced with some tough choices in order to continue offering the newsletter, website, forum etc...
In talking with friends I have been offered some suggestions which range from:
a. add a nominal charge to the newsletter - I am against doing so
b. allow advertisers on the website that are Port/Madeira/Douro related
c. allow any wine releated ads and leverage free space
d. ask for donations for those that receive the newsletter and participate on the site
e. continue the site with no ads and have a "premium content section" that would include the newsletter and one or two other sections for those that chose to make a donation.
f. advertise products for folks to purchase and make a % off of the sales.
Not sure yet what the best direction is. For the past two years I have not done anything beyond my Port related activities and one small 2 month project each year. Moving forward, that is going to have to change. I would really appreciate your feedback on this. What say you?
Commercialization of this website
Moderators: Glenn E., Roy Hersh, Andy Velebil
Commercialization of this website
Ambition driven by passion, rather than money, is as strong an elixir as is Port. http://www.fortheloveofport.com
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Frederick Blais
- Posts: 2708
- Joined: Sun Jul 31, 2005 10:07 am
- Location: Porto, Portugal
Sad to hear that :
With all the respect I have for you Roy, I'll tell you what I think about this.
First, about your web site. It is great to have a place to talk about only port, but it is very restrictive. This forum is very active compared to other Port forum you can see on the web. But it is very quiet compared to other boards on the net. So, putting adds on the site may generate a few dollars each month. Then selling Port and taking a % of the sales. I personnaly don't have a problem with that, but as a customer, I want the best prices. So can you still take a % on the sale and get great prices on the Port. If so, is the % interesting with a volume interesting to make enough money VS the time you invest doing so. You also have to be careful about this, because even though you don't make the transaction, people will have you name on top of the list if a badluck comes in a bad transaction.
Then making people pay for a newsletter. I don't have any problem with that too. But as long as you commit with a regular releasing of a newsletter, one each month or something like this and that you are able to keep the quality as high as it is right now. This is probably the best method to hit more people to make them pay. But the newsletter it is also the best way to attrack people to you web site to then sell them other things.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Then for the trip:
I think it is hard to sell a 1 week 4k$ trip when you have only 10 lines of description about the trip +schedule and not knowing the producers you are going to meet, list of restaurants, part of menus etc. That said, with a trip reaport I'm sure you are going to make many jealous and then attrack more people to make the next trip. You have to justify the high cost, according to my budget at least, with more juice. The rabbit is there, you just need the carrot to make it come to you. By the way, I know that your trip was a total experience! But for me 140 Port in 3 days is way too much if I want to complete the trip even though I'm spitting it all.
Secondly, a week loaded of tastings is not the place to bring your wife and children, cutting here a vast public. Portugal is not a destination favored by a lot of people when it comes to wine destination. I know, I tried to find a partner for my last trip and they all said that they'll go to France before Portugal. Finally, be careful of the dates you chose to travel. Not a lot of people are taking vacation during the month of November, they mostly taking it during the summer with the family and hot weather.
Look at Robin Garr website, with all the trafic he has, from what I read he also has trouble booking his yearly trip. He sends a few reminder each year to try to book it. He is also advertising it a year before.
I find fantastic what you are doing, I'd just love to put 100% of my time into port business and be able to make my living out of it. I wish you the best of luck in your adventure!
Regards
Fred
With all the respect I have for you Roy, I'll tell you what I think about this.
First, about your web site. It is great to have a place to talk about only port, but it is very restrictive. This forum is very active compared to other Port forum you can see on the web. But it is very quiet compared to other boards on the net. So, putting adds on the site may generate a few dollars each month. Then selling Port and taking a % of the sales. I personnaly don't have a problem with that, but as a customer, I want the best prices. So can you still take a % on the sale and get great prices on the Port. If so, is the % interesting with a volume interesting to make enough money VS the time you invest doing so. You also have to be careful about this, because even though you don't make the transaction, people will have you name on top of the list if a badluck comes in a bad transaction.
Then making people pay for a newsletter. I don't have any problem with that too. But as long as you commit with a regular releasing of a newsletter, one each month or something like this and that you are able to keep the quality as high as it is right now. This is probably the best method to hit more people to make them pay. But the newsletter it is also the best way to attrack people to you web site to then sell them other things.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Then for the trip:
I think it is hard to sell a 1 week 4k$ trip when you have only 10 lines of description about the trip +schedule and not knowing the producers you are going to meet, list of restaurants, part of menus etc. That said, with a trip reaport I'm sure you are going to make many jealous and then attrack more people to make the next trip. You have to justify the high cost, according to my budget at least, with more juice. The rabbit is there, you just need the carrot to make it come to you. By the way, I know that your trip was a total experience! But for me 140 Port in 3 days is way too much if I want to complete the trip even though I'm spitting it all.
Secondly, a week loaded of tastings is not the place to bring your wife and children, cutting here a vast public. Portugal is not a destination favored by a lot of people when it comes to wine destination. I know, I tried to find a partner for my last trip and they all said that they'll go to France before Portugal. Finally, be careful of the dates you chose to travel. Not a lot of people are taking vacation during the month of November, they mostly taking it during the summer with the family and hot weather.
Look at Robin Garr website, with all the trafic he has, from what I read he also has trouble booking his yearly trip. He sends a few reminder each year to try to book it. He is also advertising it a year before.
I find fantastic what you are doing, I'd just love to put 100% of my time into port business and be able to make my living out of it. I wish you the best of luck in your adventure!
Regards
Fred
Living the dream and now working for a Port company
Fred,
Excellent analysis, and well thought out suggestions. I appreciate your taking the time to respond to this.
I only wish that more of the readers would put in their ideas too!
Excellent analysis, and well thought out suggestions. I appreciate your taking the time to respond to this.
I only wish that more of the readers would put in their ideas too!
Ambition driven by passion, rather than money, is as strong an elixir as is Port. http://www.fortheloveofport.com
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Andy Velebil
- Posts: 16626
- Joined: Tue Aug 02, 2005 4:49 pm
- Location: Los Angeles, California, United States of America - USA
- Contact:
Roy,
Here is my two cents worth;
I would have no problem paying a small yearly fee to recieve the newsletter and all that the rest of the web site has to offer. I think the fee would have to be reasonable though. I agree with Fred, the newsletter would have to become more regular. As a paying member, most of the site should be restricted (such as tasting notes, etc.), with the forum remaining free.
For the forum, I think it should stay free. Even if this means putting up ad banners in the corners, or where ever else they fit. This forum has opened the world of port up to me, more than any other wine site there is. For that I will always be grateful. I am not scared or intimidated to post here. I still consider myself a newbie to wine in general, especially port. Everyone here has always been very helpful with my basic questions and concerns. Other sites I am very hesitant to post on. This is only because basic questions on other sites are sometimes answered sarcasticly. Mostly, I believe, by older more knowledgeable wine enthusiasts, with little patience for newbies.
I believe if you have to pay for the forum, then there would probably be a great loss of people contributing to and reading the site.
ALthough, I agree with Fred that this site is a bit restrictive, That is what I love about this site. I want to discuss porto and related topics. If I want wine info, I will go to other sites that I belong to. I like the fact that, so far, the posts have remained quite true to the topics at hand. Unlike most other sites topics that, by shear number of participants, almost always degenerates into some kind of bickering or other wierd tangent.
I will say thanks again for your (and Stewarts) hard work on this site.
Here is my two cents worth;
I would have no problem paying a small yearly fee to recieve the newsletter and all that the rest of the web site has to offer. I think the fee would have to be reasonable though. I agree with Fred, the newsletter would have to become more regular. As a paying member, most of the site should be restricted (such as tasting notes, etc.), with the forum remaining free.
For the forum, I think it should stay free. Even if this means putting up ad banners in the corners, or where ever else they fit. This forum has opened the world of port up to me, more than any other wine site there is. For that I will always be grateful. I am not scared or intimidated to post here. I still consider myself a newbie to wine in general, especially port. Everyone here has always been very helpful with my basic questions and concerns. Other sites I am very hesitant to post on. This is only because basic questions on other sites are sometimes answered sarcasticly. Mostly, I believe, by older more knowledgeable wine enthusiasts, with little patience for newbies.
I believe if you have to pay for the forum, then there would probably be a great loss of people contributing to and reading the site.
ALthough, I agree with Fred that this site is a bit restrictive, That is what I love about this site. I want to discuss porto and related topics. If I want wine info, I will go to other sites that I belong to. I like the fact that, so far, the posts have remained quite true to the topics at hand. Unlike most other sites topics that, by shear number of participants, almost always degenerates into some kind of bickering or other wierd tangent.
I will say thanks again for your (and Stewarts) hard work on this site.
Andy Velebil Good wine is a good familiar creature if it be well used. William Shakespeare http://www.fortheloveofport.com
To Alex and others reading this:
I will reserve my responses for a brief while in hopes that MANY MORE ideas, suggestions, critical remarks, positive ones ... all are posted here. I have humbly opened this up to the folks that matter most, the readers. Although there are only 200+ MEMBERS, I can assure you that there are triple that number that are reading this FORUM. And there are many multiples of that number that receive and read the FTLOP newsletter. Additionally, virtually every single producer, wine shop owner and Shipper I came across in the Douro, Madeira and Oporto had visited this site prior to meeting me. Mario and I were both astounded by this. I even found my blurbs on 2003 vintage Ports, used on sell sheets in tasting rooms in Gaia.
Back to the humility part though. This website is called FOR THE LOVE OF PORT for a reason. Before there would be any changes to the scope and nature of it, there would be significant amounts of time, thought and discussion involved.
Anyway, PLEASE do put your thoughts here on this page, not in PMs... as others can offer their opinions and many have ideas generated by reading someone else's post.
Muito obrigado!
I will reserve my responses for a brief while in hopes that MANY MORE ideas, suggestions, critical remarks, positive ones ... all are posted here. I have humbly opened this up to the folks that matter most, the readers. Although there are only 200+ MEMBERS, I can assure you that there are triple that number that are reading this FORUM. And there are many multiples of that number that receive and read the FTLOP newsletter. Additionally, virtually every single producer, wine shop owner and Shipper I came across in the Douro, Madeira and Oporto had visited this site prior to meeting me. Mario and I were both astounded by this. I even found my blurbs on 2003 vintage Ports, used on sell sheets in tasting rooms in Gaia.
Back to the humility part though. This website is called FOR THE LOVE OF PORT for a reason. Before there would be any changes to the scope and nature of it, there would be significant amounts of time, thought and discussion involved.
Anyway, PLEASE do put your thoughts here on this page, not in PMs... as others can offer their opinions and many have ideas generated by reading someone else's post.
Muito obrigado!
Ambition driven by passion, rather than money, is as strong an elixir as is Port. http://www.fortheloveofport.com
Roy,
For what its worth, here are some thoughts from me that I previously sent via PM.
I don't see how 200 people on a website will be sufficient for you to be able to make a living. Even if you wanted to generate only USD 50,000 per year from the website then that would equate to $250 per person, every person, per year. Possible, but highly unlikely.
However, neither would I want to see this forum and website or your newsletter stop. I think it is a fabulous site and - as others have said - the fact that it is so focused is what attracts me to it. I do not have the time to keep up with something like the Squires forum but the FTLOP forum is great as it means that there are no more than a dozen new messages when I log on and I will want to read all of them. Personally, I would be happy to pay something towards the cost of both the website and newsletter and towards the cost of your time (and Stewart's time) spent in running and maintaining the site.
On this basis, I would choose the option of having a premium section of the website. I would be happy if, say, for USD 5-10 per month I had access to:
(i) a copy of your newsletter 1 month before it went on general release, (provided the newsletter came out regularly)
(ii) access to your tasting notes for the ports and madeiras you have drunk. Your experience and notes are great Intellectual Property, which you may currently be undervaluing by posting so widely. {If you want to see an extreme example of the value of tasting notes. just look at the way Parker has made his career (and the career of others) just by drinking more often than most people and writing notes on his opinions.}
(iii) a tasting notes database where other forum members can also post their notes. I often wonder what a particular wine is like and whether anyone else has tried it recently. If everyone who posted tasting notes on the forum posted their notes into a searcheable database, that would be fantastic and would give me everything I wanted. The closest that I have found on the web at the moment is the Cellarmaster tasting notes tracker, but this has relatively small proportion of port tasting notes. (I don't understand why you would post your notes there and give away the value that they represent if you are looking to make a living from port?)
(iv) create a "retailer" level of membership for the forum and allow retailers to upload details of their stock and prices on the marketplace. I'm also happy to have advertising borders around the website. Although 200 people visiting would not generate huge amounts of advertising revenue, you might collect some money towards the cost of running the site. Especially if you have another 400+ people who are not registered but are frequent visitors.
Another idea is to publish your tasting notes in a collection as Suckling did 15 years ago. The world (at least the small part of it that drinks port) is crying out for an update of Sucklings book, but he is unlikely to have the time to do it soon - maybe even include some comments or notes on non-portuguese "ports", which is something that Suckling did not do. That would cost me around GBP 20-25, a proportion of which would go to you. You also have some wonderful tales of your visits to Portugal and Madeira so could also / instead write a book on your travels.
You could offer your newsletter to one of the wine magazines as a regular contribution. If one of the magazines picked up your newsletter as a monthly item, I would certainly subscribe to that magazine. Port is woefully under-represented in the wine press at present. I don't know if you publish many port articles in the wine press in the US, but I don't see many articles published by you in the UK. Perhaps there is a geographically wider opportunity for you to make a living from writing about port.
Alternatively, and maybe more simply, I would be happy if I paid a few bucks for a copy of the newsletter each couple of months but would look for it to be issued more regularly.
But above all, I want to say that I do believe that through a combination of many things you should certainly be able to make a comfortable living by promoting port and by writing about the wines you have drunk and will continue to drink. I value your opinion on these wines (although we may disagree on some things
) and would hate to see you have to stop.
Interestingly, were your comments on the wines you saw in Portugal credited to you? Have you received any form of compensation for the use of your comments on the sell sheets in the tasting rooms?
Alex
For what its worth, here are some thoughts from me that I previously sent via PM.
I don't see how 200 people on a website will be sufficient for you to be able to make a living. Even if you wanted to generate only USD 50,000 per year from the website then that would equate to $250 per person, every person, per year. Possible, but highly unlikely.
However, neither would I want to see this forum and website or your newsletter stop. I think it is a fabulous site and - as others have said - the fact that it is so focused is what attracts me to it. I do not have the time to keep up with something like the Squires forum but the FTLOP forum is great as it means that there are no more than a dozen new messages when I log on and I will want to read all of them. Personally, I would be happy to pay something towards the cost of both the website and newsletter and towards the cost of your time (and Stewart's time) spent in running and maintaining the site.
On this basis, I would choose the option of having a premium section of the website. I would be happy if, say, for USD 5-10 per month I had access to:
(i) a copy of your newsletter 1 month before it went on general release, (provided the newsletter came out regularly)
(ii) access to your tasting notes for the ports and madeiras you have drunk. Your experience and notes are great Intellectual Property, which you may currently be undervaluing by posting so widely. {If you want to see an extreme example of the value of tasting notes. just look at the way Parker has made his career (and the career of others) just by drinking more often than most people and writing notes on his opinions.}
(iii) a tasting notes database where other forum members can also post their notes. I often wonder what a particular wine is like and whether anyone else has tried it recently. If everyone who posted tasting notes on the forum posted their notes into a searcheable database, that would be fantastic and would give me everything I wanted. The closest that I have found on the web at the moment is the Cellarmaster tasting notes tracker, but this has relatively small proportion of port tasting notes. (I don't understand why you would post your notes there and give away the value that they represent if you are looking to make a living from port?)
(iv) create a "retailer" level of membership for the forum and allow retailers to upload details of their stock and prices on the marketplace. I'm also happy to have advertising borders around the website. Although 200 people visiting would not generate huge amounts of advertising revenue, you might collect some money towards the cost of running the site. Especially if you have another 400+ people who are not registered but are frequent visitors.
Another idea is to publish your tasting notes in a collection as Suckling did 15 years ago. The world (at least the small part of it that drinks port) is crying out for an update of Sucklings book, but he is unlikely to have the time to do it soon - maybe even include some comments or notes on non-portuguese "ports", which is something that Suckling did not do. That would cost me around GBP 20-25, a proportion of which would go to you. You also have some wonderful tales of your visits to Portugal and Madeira so could also / instead write a book on your travels.
You could offer your newsletter to one of the wine magazines as a regular contribution. If one of the magazines picked up your newsletter as a monthly item, I would certainly subscribe to that magazine. Port is woefully under-represented in the wine press at present. I don't know if you publish many port articles in the wine press in the US, but I don't see many articles published by you in the UK. Perhaps there is a geographically wider opportunity for you to make a living from writing about port.
Alternatively, and maybe more simply, I would be happy if I paid a few bucks for a copy of the newsletter each couple of months but would look for it to be issued more regularly.
But above all, I want to say that I do believe that through a combination of many things you should certainly be able to make a comfortable living by promoting port and by writing about the wines you have drunk and will continue to drink. I value your opinion on these wines (although we may disagree on some things
) and would hate to see you have to stop.Interestingly, were your comments on the wines you saw in Portugal credited to you? Have you received any form of compensation for the use of your comments on the sell sheets in the tasting rooms?
Alex
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Derek T.
- Posts: 4080
- Joined: Wed Sep 14, 2005 5:02 pm
- Location: Chesterfield, United Kingdom - UK
- Contact:
Roy,
I would happily pay an annual subscription to this site and would also be happy to pay for the newsletter each month. The problem is that, assuming the charges were reasonable and in line with other similar web based services, you would only receive about $100 per year from me and anyone else willing to pay for the service you provide.
If you want or need to make this pay for itself then I think the only answer is selling advertising space. Based on current membership and activity stats, direct charges to members would only affect 200 people at most, whereas your advertisers would have access to 2000 users per month.
I use hundreds of internet sites and almost all have advertising sponsors. To be honest, I hardly even notice they are there, unless the website is very badly designed and overloaded with large images that slow down the page display times.
If you could persuade some of your friends in the trade to take some space on the site I think you would have a far more viable proposition for the long term than relying on thoe people who generate the content of the site as a direct source of income.
On the travel company, I think you probably have a large market in the UK and possibly the rest of Europe for short trips to special events at houses that are otherwise not accessible. I flew to Oporto earlier this year for less than $100 return and also got a great deal in the Sheraton Oporto 5* hotel. It is therefore not going to be easy to persuade anyone in the UK to pay you for travel and accommodation as we can arrange it ourselves for next to nothing. However, where you can win is in selling us the experiences you can access through your network of friends in the trade. I got there and stayed there on the cheap but I had no way of getting in to meet Dirk Niepoort or the Symingtons and it was vitually impossible to get a taste of Vintage Port on the tourist trail. I would glady have paid someone like you to open doors for me during my 3 day visit and let me see things that are not available to the masses. Perhaps you should consider letting your customers come to you while you are over there rather than going to the trouble of taking them with you for the whole trip.
Derek
I would happily pay an annual subscription to this site and would also be happy to pay for the newsletter each month. The problem is that, assuming the charges were reasonable and in line with other similar web based services, you would only receive about $100 per year from me and anyone else willing to pay for the service you provide.
If you want or need to make this pay for itself then I think the only answer is selling advertising space. Based on current membership and activity stats, direct charges to members would only affect 200 people at most, whereas your advertisers would have access to 2000 users per month.
I use hundreds of internet sites and almost all have advertising sponsors. To be honest, I hardly even notice they are there, unless the website is very badly designed and overloaded with large images that slow down the page display times.
If you could persuade some of your friends in the trade to take some space on the site I think you would have a far more viable proposition for the long term than relying on thoe people who generate the content of the site as a direct source of income.
On the travel company, I think you probably have a large market in the UK and possibly the rest of Europe for short trips to special events at houses that are otherwise not accessible. I flew to Oporto earlier this year for less than $100 return and also got a great deal in the Sheraton Oporto 5* hotel. It is therefore not going to be easy to persuade anyone in the UK to pay you for travel and accommodation as we can arrange it ourselves for next to nothing. However, where you can win is in selling us the experiences you can access through your network of friends in the trade. I got there and stayed there on the cheap but I had no way of getting in to meet Dirk Niepoort or the Symingtons and it was vitually impossible to get a taste of Vintage Port on the tourist trail. I would glady have paid someone like you to open doors for me during my 3 day visit and let me see things that are not available to the masses. Perhaps you should consider letting your customers come to you while you are over there rather than going to the trouble of taking them with you for the whole trip.
Derek
Roy,
I would echo what Derek has said. If you were able to use your knowledge of the port industry to organise a 2-3 day event in the Douro which essentially centered around a single, major event then I would be very interested in travelling down to Oporto for the event. As Derek says, it only costs around $100 return.
Something like a night staying in one of the quintas, with a tour, a meal and a guided or blind tasting. Travel out on day 1, arrive around lunch time, visit one of the lodges in VNdG, o/night in Oporto, travel up to the quinta on day 2, tour, taste and dinner, o/night in or near the quinta, return to Oporto and depart on day 3.
I would need plenty of notice though. Midweek would be ideal for me.
You've had some input from a few people here through the forum, you've probably also had other input from people outside the forum. Have you had any further thoughts on the way you could develop the website and/or make a living from Port?
Alex
I would echo what Derek has said. If you were able to use your knowledge of the port industry to organise a 2-3 day event in the Douro which essentially centered around a single, major event then I would be very interested in travelling down to Oporto for the event. As Derek says, it only costs around $100 return.
Something like a night staying in one of the quintas, with a tour, a meal and a guided or blind tasting. Travel out on day 1, arrive around lunch time, visit one of the lodges in VNdG, o/night in Oporto, travel up to the quinta on day 2, tour, taste and dinner, o/night in or near the quinta, return to Oporto and depart on day 3.
I would need plenty of notice though. Midweek would be ideal for me.
You've had some input from a few people here through the forum, you've probably also had other input from people outside the forum. Have you had any further thoughts on the way you could develop the website and/or make a living from Port?
Alex
Alex,
The only question that I will answer NOW, is your last one about my decisions.
Yes, I have met with a few "advisors" and yes I have paid the CLOSEST attention to the few Forum members who thankfully were very open with their opinions.
I am meeting with Stewart next week and discussing some improvements here and plans for the next six months, year and two years. Beyond that ... who knows. But I can assure you that the Newsletter will be put forth on a more regular (most likely monthly) basis. I have to see how that fits with plans to travel abroad, lead tastings here in the USA etc.
To cut to the chase though, no final decisions have been made. I keep in close contact with Mario and will start to meet with Stewart at least quarterly, right now it is more socializing with wine dinners but we both want to make some changes, which ultimately will lead to improvements on the site and newsletter.
Thanks to all of you whom have put the time and thought into some excellent replies. Trust me, I have read them over and over and so has Stewart and Mario.
To those of you that have been sitting on the fence about whether to post on this topic, please err on the side of putting fingers to the keys. I really would love to hear what you think ... the good, the bad or the ugly.
Best regards!
The only question that I will answer NOW, is your last one about my decisions.
Yes, I have met with a few "advisors" and yes I have paid the CLOSEST attention to the few Forum members who thankfully were very open with their opinions.
I am meeting with Stewart next week and discussing some improvements here and plans for the next six months, year and two years. Beyond that ... who knows. But I can assure you that the Newsletter will be put forth on a more regular (most likely monthly) basis. I have to see how that fits with plans to travel abroad, lead tastings here in the USA etc.
To cut to the chase though, no final decisions have been made. I keep in close contact with Mario and will start to meet with Stewart at least quarterly, right now it is more socializing with wine dinners but we both want to make some changes, which ultimately will lead to improvements on the site and newsletter.
Thanks to all of you whom have put the time and thought into some excellent replies. Trust me, I have read them over and over and so has Stewart and Mario.
To those of you that have been sitting on the fence about whether to post on this topic, please err on the side of putting fingers to the keys. I really would love to hear what you think ... the good, the bad or the ugly.
Best regards!
Ambition driven by passion, rather than money, is as strong an elixir as is Port. http://www.fortheloveofport.com
-
xxxMonique Heinemans
- Posts: 51
- Joined: Sun Jul 31, 2005 3:09 am
- Location: the Netherlands
Dear Roy
When I first met you on the web, I thought: Wow, this man is making a living out off his hobby. I really did think untill now that you generated enough money out off your articles, leading tastings, etc.
But for nothing only the sun comes up.....
I agree on former comments that apearently you are much too enthousiastic writing your TN's and all your other experiences down everywhere. You should compare yourselve with a teacher, he doesn't share his knowledge for free either.
I agree here on Alex, you have such an amount of knowledge,
write a good book with lots of tastingnotes and rewrite it every 5 or 6 year. Write another about the region and your traveling there. It will sell!
And yes, try to find a good magazin where you can contribute to on a regular base, payed, off course!
Further on I agree with most others here, charge a small monthly amount for some parts of the FTLOP, but let the forum to be free to visit, otherwise you will loose new potential members.
Some advertising wouldn't bother me, it has become an evil everywhere, so why not here?
According to the traveling, I also think that a 7 days trip is to long, (to much) for most people, esp. for us living in Europe, where we can easyly travel to South-Europe.
Isn't there a possibility just to be there during the summer or short after, promoting port and making short trips with people and beïng payed for it by the portproducers as well? After all, they bennefit most of your enthousiasm!!!
(Maybe you want to be friends to much?)
Well, rests to say that I really appreciate all the work you've done to make the FTLOP what it is. And I would really regred the lost of it.
Wish you the best of luck!
Monique.
When I first met you on the web, I thought: Wow, this man is making a living out off his hobby. I really did think untill now that you generated enough money out off your articles, leading tastings, etc.
But for nothing only the sun comes up.....
I agree on former comments that apearently you are much too enthousiastic writing your TN's and all your other experiences down everywhere. You should compare yourselve with a teacher, he doesn't share his knowledge for free either.
I agree here on Alex, you have such an amount of knowledge,
write a good book with lots of tastingnotes and rewrite it every 5 or 6 year. Write another about the region and your traveling there. It will sell!
And yes, try to find a good magazin where you can contribute to on a regular base, payed, off course!
Further on I agree with most others here, charge a small monthly amount for some parts of the FTLOP, but let the forum to be free to visit, otherwise you will loose new potential members.
Some advertising wouldn't bother me, it has become an evil everywhere, so why not here?
According to the traveling, I also think that a 7 days trip is to long, (to much) for most people, esp. for us living in Europe, where we can easyly travel to South-Europe.
Isn't there a possibility just to be there during the summer or short after, promoting port and making short trips with people and beïng payed for it by the portproducers as well? After all, they bennefit most of your enthousiasm!!!
(Maybe you want to be friends to much?)
Well, rests to say that I really appreciate all the work you've done to make the FTLOP what it is. And I would really regred the lost of it.
Wish you the best of luck!
Monique.
Stewart and I spent five hours discussiong out gameplan for FTLOP 2006. Many of your suggestions were taken to heart and every single one of them was discussed.
We are going to upgrade the software on the site and add some cool stuff. Stewart will provide more information on this, when he has the time.
I am going to commit to doing a monthly newsletter starting in January and will try to get one finalized before the end of this year too. The newsletter may be shortened a bit so that I can ensure that it will be published on a regular basis, as this was a key suggestion here.
There will be improved functionality with a searchable database for TNs and also the ddition of RSS/ATOM feeds. More to come, be patient with us and you'll see the improvements over the next couple of months.
You folks have really helped with all of your excellent feedback, so THANK YOU!
Now if anybody has suggestions how to expand the membership of the newsletter, that would really be appreciated. Best suggestion, that winds up being used, will get a bottle of well stored and aged, Vintage Port from my cellar ... regardless of where in the world you reside. How is that for incentive?[/b]
We are going to upgrade the software on the site and add some cool stuff. Stewart will provide more information on this, when he has the time.
I am going to commit to doing a monthly newsletter starting in January and will try to get one finalized before the end of this year too. The newsletter may be shortened a bit so that I can ensure that it will be published on a regular basis, as this was a key suggestion here.
There will be improved functionality with a searchable database for TNs and also the ddition of RSS/ATOM feeds. More to come, be patient with us and you'll see the improvements over the next couple of months.
You folks have really helped with all of your excellent feedback, so THANK YOU!
Now if anybody has suggestions how to expand the membership of the newsletter, that would really be appreciated. Best suggestion, that winds up being used, will get a bottle of well stored and aged, Vintage Port from my cellar ... regardless of where in the world you reside. How is that for incentive?[/b]
Ambition driven by passion, rather than money, is as strong an elixir as is Port. http://www.fortheloveofport.com
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Derek T.
- Posts: 4080
- Joined: Wed Sep 14, 2005 5:02 pm
- Location: Chesterfield, United Kingdom - UK
- Contact:
Free port - I'm in !!!
Here are some suggestions based on absolutely no research whatsoever, just experience of searching the www for port resources - in the UK we would call this Brainstorming but no doubt there is a very much longer and more complex description for this over the pond
Post and advert on http://www.wine-searcher.com - based on experience using the site I think the display of adverts on each search may be linked in some way to the criteria entered. When I search for port I do not get adverts selling white wine!
Write a clever program (I think you call it a spider) which searches other port and wine websites and extracts e-mail addresses from postings and member lists - e-mail every address you find with a free copy of the newsletter and an invitation to join the best port forum on earth. (I'm hoping compliments will help my chances on the free port thing!)
Ask your friends in the trade to give or sell you their lists of e-mail addresses of people who have joined their mailing lists. Some, like Symingtons, have lists of people who they e-mail when they declare a vintage. These can really only be people who are interested in buying port so they should be interested in reading the best port newsletter in the Universe (can you see a theme developing here?)
Send printed copies of your fantastic newsletter to people who host port tasting events around the world. They can give them out at the tasting.
Same as above but send them to some friendly visitors centres in Oporto.
If you can persuade some high volume suppliers in Europe or the US/Can to advertise on your website offer them a discount if they put a copy of your newsletter in every case of port they sell for a month.
Include adverts for wine merchants and auction houses in the newsletter (think Vogue) and give them copies to hand out to port buying people.
On your next trip to Oporto, stand on the street in front of the Douro handing out copies of the newsletter - particularly to people leaving the Noval shop with a bag full of bottles!
Put a picture of Mario Ferreira stripped to the waist on the front page and include a copy of the newsletter as an insert on a popular woman's magazine. Jo was very impressed by those Iberian peninsula good looks at the wine tasting in London in November so no doubt other women around the world might think the same and persuade their other halves to join the forum.
I work for an organisation that employs 28,000 people - I could give you the company e-mail address book but it would have to be a very special bottle as I would lose my job
- a few cases of Nacional 31 might do the trick
If none of these are attractive please let me know and I'll think of some more.
Derek
PS: I do not know anything about US Data Protection or Privacy laws. If you go to jail (penitentuary) as a result of one of my suggestions I will give up my right to the free bottle to avoid being extradited as an acomplice
Here are some suggestions based on absolutely no research whatsoever, just experience of searching the www for port resources - in the UK we would call this Brainstorming but no doubt there is a very much longer and more complex description for this over the pond
Post and advert on http://www.wine-searcher.com - based on experience using the site I think the display of adverts on each search may be linked in some way to the criteria entered. When I search for port I do not get adverts selling white wine!
Write a clever program (I think you call it a spider) which searches other port and wine websites and extracts e-mail addresses from postings and member lists - e-mail every address you find with a free copy of the newsletter and an invitation to join the best port forum on earth. (I'm hoping compliments will help my chances on the free port thing!)
Ask your friends in the trade to give or sell you their lists of e-mail addresses of people who have joined their mailing lists. Some, like Symingtons, have lists of people who they e-mail when they declare a vintage. These can really only be people who are interested in buying port so they should be interested in reading the best port newsletter in the Universe (can you see a theme developing here?)
Send printed copies of your fantastic newsletter to people who host port tasting events around the world. They can give them out at the tasting.
Same as above but send them to some friendly visitors centres in Oporto.
If you can persuade some high volume suppliers in Europe or the US/Can to advertise on your website offer them a discount if they put a copy of your newsletter in every case of port they sell for a month.
Include adverts for wine merchants and auction houses in the newsletter (think Vogue) and give them copies to hand out to port buying people.
On your next trip to Oporto, stand on the street in front of the Douro handing out copies of the newsletter - particularly to people leaving the Noval shop with a bag full of bottles!
Put a picture of Mario Ferreira stripped to the waist on the front page and include a copy of the newsletter as an insert on a popular woman's magazine. Jo was very impressed by those Iberian peninsula good looks at the wine tasting in London in November so no doubt other women around the world might think the same and persuade their other halves to join the forum.
I work for an organisation that employs 28,000 people - I could give you the company e-mail address book but it would have to be a very special bottle as I would lose my job
- a few cases of Nacional 31 might do the trick If none of these are attractive please let me know and I'll think of some more.
Derek
PS: I do not know anything about US Data Protection or Privacy laws. If you go to jail (penitentuary) as a result of one of my suggestions I will give up my right to the free bottle to avoid being extradited as an acomplice
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Mike Kerr
- Posts: 194
- Joined: Thu Dec 08, 2005 1:39 pm
- Location: Centreville, Virginia, United States of America - USA
I've been kind of standing off on the sidelines reading the feedback on this. I don't think I would have any issue contributing a nominal sum for a yearly thing.
Having said that...
I have no issue with in-line advertisements, but pop-ups are intolerable for me.
I personally think it might be worth it, and get better interest, by striking a deal with some major regional retailers to display simple Port fliers in their stores to advertise both the site and the trip business. Better yet, strike up some deals with wine clubs across the country to include the flyer with their monthly club shipments.
I think you would get more bang for your buck to attract members and subscribers doing that than any electronic form of advertising, which most people will glance at while they're doing what they *really* are trying to accomplish and not give it a second thought. A flyer in a monthly wine shipment people will get to once they've cataloged or stored their wine, and can read it on the can...
I speak from experience.
Mike.
Having said that...
If this was employed, I would drop any subscription or interest in the site in a hurry. I get enough spam as it is and I would not knowingly be associated with a special-interest site that engaged in those kinds of advertising tactics.Write a clever program (I think you call it a spider) which searches other port and wine websites and extracts e-mail addresses from postings and member lists - e-mail every address you find with a free copy of the newsletter and an invitation to join the best port forum on earth.
I have no issue with in-line advertisements, but pop-ups are intolerable for me.
I personally think it might be worth it, and get better interest, by striking a deal with some major regional retailers to display simple Port fliers in their stores to advertise both the site and the trip business. Better yet, strike up some deals with wine clubs across the country to include the flyer with their monthly club shipments.
I think you would get more bang for your buck to attract members and subscribers doing that than any electronic form of advertising, which most people will glance at while they're doing what they *really* are trying to accomplish and not give it a second thought. A flyer in a monthly wine shipment people will get to once they've cataloged or stored their wine, and can read it on the can...
I speak from experience.
Mike.
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Andy Velebil
- Posts: 16626
- Joined: Tue Aug 02, 2005 4:49 pm
- Location: Los Angeles, California, United States of America - USA
- Contact:
Having thought about this for a bit, here's my thoughts.
Since this is a free site and newsletter I will keep my sugestions to things that will not incure much, if any, expense. Roy, I know you belong to other wine chat forums (we will come back to this). Now, most people are inherantly lazy. The more steps to register for the free electronic FTLOP newsletter the fewer people are going to sign up. Plus, people are becoming more reluctant to sign up for email type newsletters as the resulting junk email that starts flowing right after. (I've never had that happen here, but I have had it happen and I am very reluctant to sign up for things because of it.)
Ok, back to the above. How about placing a link onto your signature box on the other wine sites that you belong to. Have a short "speech" as an introduction also. This link would automatically direct a person to a site where all they have to do is enter their email address, press send and be done with it. They are then auomatically signed up to recieve your monthly newsletter. Don't make the link go to the main site first, just straight to the sign up page. There should be a disclaimer that you will never give, sell, pass, etc, the emails of your subscribers to any other person or site.
I know there is a current way to do this from the FTLOP site. However, on that site you have to put in your name and other information. I say eliminate this. I know you like to know who and where people are, but a lot of people are hesitant to divulge this information into cyberspace. Just allow them to put in their email and be done with it. THen you can also send them information about this port forum, and hopefully get them involved as posters here.
The other part of this is to get people already on this forum to put the link to register for the newsletter onto their signature box at other web sites and chat forums. I know I would have no problem doing this. It is the least I could do to help get the world of port to more people. Plus, people like to do as others do. The more they see others with the link, they will get curious and assume it is a safe and popular site (which it is) and want to know more. In advertising, the more people that see the web site name the higher the odds they will search out what that name (web site) is all about.
Since this is a free site and newsletter I will keep my sugestions to things that will not incure much, if any, expense. Roy, I know you belong to other wine chat forums (we will come back to this). Now, most people are inherantly lazy. The more steps to register for the free electronic FTLOP newsletter the fewer people are going to sign up. Plus, people are becoming more reluctant to sign up for email type newsletters as the resulting junk email that starts flowing right after. (I've never had that happen here, but I have had it happen and I am very reluctant to sign up for things because of it.)
Ok, back to the above. How about placing a link onto your signature box on the other wine sites that you belong to. Have a short "speech" as an introduction also. This link would automatically direct a person to a site where all they have to do is enter their email address, press send and be done with it. They are then auomatically signed up to recieve your monthly newsletter. Don't make the link go to the main site first, just straight to the sign up page. There should be a disclaimer that you will never give, sell, pass, etc, the emails of your subscribers to any other person or site.
I know there is a current way to do this from the FTLOP site. However, on that site you have to put in your name and other information. I say eliminate this. I know you like to know who and where people are, but a lot of people are hesitant to divulge this information into cyberspace. Just allow them to put in their email and be done with it. THen you can also send them information about this port forum, and hopefully get them involved as posters here.
The other part of this is to get people already on this forum to put the link to register for the newsletter onto their signature box at other web sites and chat forums. I know I would have no problem doing this. It is the least I could do to help get the world of port to more people. Plus, people like to do as others do. The more they see others with the link, they will get curious and assume it is a safe and popular site (which it is) and want to know more. In advertising, the more people that see the web site name the higher the odds they will search out what that name (web site) is all about.
Andy Velebil Good wine is a good familiar creature if it be well used. William Shakespeare http://www.fortheloveofport.com
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Frederick Blais
- Posts: 2708
- Joined: Sun Jul 31, 2005 10:07 am
- Location: Porto, Portugal
Show me that bottle :) :)
First Roy, lets face it, I don't think you can make a living exclusively from this website in the next 2 years. If I get wrong on this, I'd be more than happy.
Here are my suggestions for the next two years. If this plan is working well, you should be able to make a living of it!
1- Keep the newsletter free but don't put many tasting notes. Let's say 10% of the wine you have taste in the month.
2- Charge a small fee for accessing the tasting notes section. I mean I would not pay 150$ for it but 20-30$ a year is very reasonnable for what it is right now. This would be your money you could invest in improving the business, marketing etc.
3- Lets face it, you are not Suckling or Parker. If Parker would organize a trip tomorrow for Bordeaux, how many people do you think would pay 10000$ for a 1 week trip with him? Many!!! This understood, you need to improve your image and notoriety.
3a Organize tastings with importers, port house, wine shops. These people know you are a good taster and that you know your Port. Here in Montreal, they gonna attrack the Douro boys and they plan to sell it to 200 persons. This is some money! With all the contacts you have, I'm sure you can organize this kind of tasting on the west coast.
3b What about a tasting and teaching about Port in wine shop? Each week you can browse a new subject, the wineshop pays you a small amout plus comission on bottles bought by the customer plus a small fee to attend the tasting.
3c Try to get samples from houses just as you did with the 2003. Lets say you want to review the 1977 vintages. Do you think the port house wouldn't be interested about getting their wine reviewed by a notorious taster. Just as the panel tasting in Decanter. Taste them alone or invite people to taste them with you an get a teaching on how to taste them.
3d With the first big events you organize, try to bring big names at these events and try to get exposure from this events. If Suckling would write an article in Wine Spectator about a fantastic event organize by the fantastic Roy Hersh, you'll get lot of attraction on you and many more people would be interested in your tastings.
Conclusion about section #3: By doing all these activities you'll get a better name, you'll reach new persons that don't have access to the internet and you can talk to them about your trip. Human contact is always better to sell than computer contact. Then with all the activities, it will give you enough to write a newsletter each month and to fill you tasting notes section. If you can get more than 100 tasting notes each month, the database will grow fast and more and more people will be interested about it. You did 120 in 3 days in Gaia, why not a 100 each month!! Send free newsletter each month with pictures and descriptions, you'll get in touch with thousands of people who are interested into Port with the Products the importer and wine shop are selling right now, this is a major return on investment for them and you'll get them line up knocking on your door to get you back organizing activities with them.
Then with the many hundreds people you are going to meet more than once, you are going to recruit interested people for your trip. If you can do it 3-6 times a year and get some vacation at the same time, it would be just great.
4- Not advertising, but just allowing us to get deals. Do not but banners but post information in the forum as you are doing now. Try to make a deal with magazines like Decanter. Lets say that for the Love of Port user, they give us a 10$ rebate and you get a 10$ comission on the first year subscription of each new customer you bring them, everybody would win at this. You can do that with many magazines, wine shop, wine articles store. You can sell member cards that gives us 10-15% rebate on instore articles beacause we are member of this nice group. I'm sure many would accept that. Here in Montreal I'm getting easily between 10 and 15% in wine article store just because they know me and if I get good service, my word of mouth will bring them new sales.
5- Keep in mind that this is your business, you have to stay away from the nice enthousiast guy always ready to share freely your knowledge and tasting about Port just because you want to promote it. Passion is something and business is another thing. I think you are at a point where need to step away from the free passion access you have gave us earlier and be a rigid business man if you really want to be successful.
I hope this is enough to get the bottle
First Roy, lets face it, I don't think you can make a living exclusively from this website in the next 2 years. If I get wrong on this, I'd be more than happy.
Here are my suggestions for the next two years. If this plan is working well, you should be able to make a living of it!
1- Keep the newsletter free but don't put many tasting notes. Let's say 10% of the wine you have taste in the month.
2- Charge a small fee for accessing the tasting notes section. I mean I would not pay 150$ for it but 20-30$ a year is very reasonnable for what it is right now. This would be your money you could invest in improving the business, marketing etc.
3- Lets face it, you are not Suckling or Parker. If Parker would organize a trip tomorrow for Bordeaux, how many people do you think would pay 10000$ for a 1 week trip with him? Many!!! This understood, you need to improve your image and notoriety.
3a Organize tastings with importers, port house, wine shops. These people know you are a good taster and that you know your Port. Here in Montreal, they gonna attrack the Douro boys and they plan to sell it to 200 persons. This is some money! With all the contacts you have, I'm sure you can organize this kind of tasting on the west coast.
3b What about a tasting and teaching about Port in wine shop? Each week you can browse a new subject, the wineshop pays you a small amout plus comission on bottles bought by the customer plus a small fee to attend the tasting.
3c Try to get samples from houses just as you did with the 2003. Lets say you want to review the 1977 vintages. Do you think the port house wouldn't be interested about getting their wine reviewed by a notorious taster. Just as the panel tasting in Decanter. Taste them alone or invite people to taste them with you an get a teaching on how to taste them.
3d With the first big events you organize, try to bring big names at these events and try to get exposure from this events. If Suckling would write an article in Wine Spectator about a fantastic event organize by the fantastic Roy Hersh, you'll get lot of attraction on you and many more people would be interested in your tastings.
Conclusion about section #3: By doing all these activities you'll get a better name, you'll reach new persons that don't have access to the internet and you can talk to them about your trip. Human contact is always better to sell than computer contact. Then with all the activities, it will give you enough to write a newsletter each month and to fill you tasting notes section. If you can get more than 100 tasting notes each month, the database will grow fast and more and more people will be interested about it. You did 120 in 3 days in Gaia, why not a 100 each month!! Send free newsletter each month with pictures and descriptions, you'll get in touch with thousands of people who are interested into Port with the Products the importer and wine shop are selling right now, this is a major return on investment for them and you'll get them line up knocking on your door to get you back organizing activities with them.
Then with the many hundreds people you are going to meet more than once, you are going to recruit interested people for your trip. If you can do it 3-6 times a year and get some vacation at the same time, it would be just great.
4- Not advertising, but just allowing us to get deals. Do not but banners but post information in the forum as you are doing now. Try to make a deal with magazines like Decanter. Lets say that for the Love of Port user, they give us a 10$ rebate and you get a 10$ comission on the first year subscription of each new customer you bring them, everybody would win at this. You can do that with many magazines, wine shop, wine articles store. You can sell member cards that gives us 10-15% rebate on instore articles beacause we are member of this nice group. I'm sure many would accept that. Here in Montreal I'm getting easily between 10 and 15% in wine article store just because they know me and if I get good service, my word of mouth will bring them new sales.
5- Keep in mind that this is your business, you have to stay away from the nice enthousiast guy always ready to share freely your knowledge and tasting about Port just because you want to promote it. Passion is something and business is another thing. I think you are at a point where need to step away from the free passion access you have gave us earlier and be a rigid business man if you really want to be successful.
I hope this is enough to get the bottle
Living the dream and now working for a Port company
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Mike Kerr
- Posts: 194
- Joined: Thu Dec 08, 2005 1:39 pm
- Location: Centreville, Virginia, United States of America - USA
Derek - in normal brainstorming, I'd agree with you, but I think Roy is looking for some discussion so he can explore both the positives and negatives of potential suggestions. Not saying the suggestion was bad per se, but there is a contingent of people who would not knowingly associate with a site that did spider-based advertising.
On the pop-up, my bad. It was actually a separate train of thought that somehow got melded to look like the same topic. What I was trying to say was I didn't agree with the spider email thing, and at the same time say that while I didn't have a problem with advertising banners on the website, I did have issue with banners that generated popups.
Mike.
On the pop-up, my bad. It was actually a separate train of thought that somehow got melded to look like the same topic. What I was trying to say was I didn't agree with the spider email thing, and at the same time say that while I didn't have a problem with advertising banners on the website, I did have issue with banners that generated popups.
Mike.