Your Port collection ... what is the organization like?

[Tom Archer]

Today the humidity where I live is 18%.

Hmm.. I'll wager your local drug store does a big trade in moisturiser and lip balm!

[Moses Botbol]

My cellar is 55.2 F and 58.6% RH. Almost towards the season low I suspect. I have a gallon humidifier running on a constant medium. I don't run it from May through Oct.

[Glenn E.]

Is EuroCave what you’d recommend for someone that needs to store VPs for 10-20 years? They’re expensive but seem to be the only true reliable option for very long term storage.

I’ve maxed out my 51 bottle no-brand fridge and need to figure out a second fridge. Half of my VPs are really young and I won’t be opening then for a long time.

My EuroCave has been rock solid for I guess it's about 14 years now. If I ever need to replace it, I will probably buy another one because it has been so reliable.

That ArteVino made by EuroCave and sold by Costco? It died after 4 years with only a 2-year warranty. Luckily Costco's policy is to replace anything for any reason, though in this case they had to refund my money since they were no longer selling ArteVino.

The 3rd fridge also died after about 4 years.

Both the ArteVino and the 3rd (no brand) fridge have now been replaced by old, used Transtherm fridges that were originally owned by Eric Levine, then by Stewart, and now by me. Stewart told me that they were probably about 10 years old when I got them, so they're on par with the EuroCave.

Then there's my very first fridge ever, a half-size Danby 56. It's not a "big name" fridge, it's noisy, it vibrates, but it's still going strong after ~15 years.

TL;DR - fridges are going to vary wildly, and you can't always predict how long they'll live just based on manufacturer.

Re: off site storage, I did the math long ago and found that buying refrigerators is significantly less expensive if they last 10 years. But that's the question, isn't it? Will they actually last 10 years or not?

My full-size fridges hold about 15 cases each. At the time that I bought my Eurocave it was roughly $3000. 15-case off site storage around here at that time was about $80 per month or $960 per year. You can see how quickly the fridge catches and surpasses the off site storage, at least in the Seattle area. You do get decent discounts with larger off site storage, but not to the point that it ever really makes sense compared to a quality fridge.

That said... the equivalent EuroCave now appears to be over $6,000. I haven't looked at off site storage in a long time, but if it has held steady then the choice is maybe not so obvious anymore.

Re: do you really even need temp controlled storage? I now also have a 200-bottle wine rack in my living room. I keep 1/3 white Port, 1/3 tawny Port, and 1/3 VPs that are sturdy but ready to drink in that rack (read: 1980-1985 right now). My house has AC so the temperature is pretty steady all year 'round, varying between the winter night heat setting of 64 to the summer AC day setting of 73. Obviously it fluctuates during the day as well, but I keep the settings with a 5 degree range summer and winter. Since the Ports in question are already nicely aged, but still quite sturdy, I'm not worried at all about them "going bad" in that wine rack. I'll probably drink through them within 10 years, if not 5. I keep older (read: less sturdy) and younger (read: needs more time to age beautifully) in my fridges.

[Tom Archer]

Re: do you really even need temp controlled storage?

That is the question. In my experience, the biggest cause of damage to fine wines, of all types, is not sub optimal temperature control, but exposure to light. Any sign of sun bleaching on an auction lot bottle label is a big no-no in my book. On the other hand, badly sun struck VP bottles remain quite drinkable, but they are very different players, venturing into the tawny spectrum as far as drinking experience goes.

Port is a pretty robust player when it comes to temperature, but it does have its limits. The occasional foray into the 70s F during a heatwave is probably nothing to get too alarmed about, but 73F for the duration of the summer? I'd regard that as being potentially risky, but on the other hand there's nothing like a little experimentation.

If Glenn wants to bring a mainstream 80s bottle that's had a few such summers under it's belt, the next time he crosses the pond, I'll pull a matching one to compare it with.

[Glenn E.]

Re: do you really even need temp controlled storage?

That is the question. In my experience, the biggest cause of damage to fine wines, of all types, is not sub optimal temperature control, but exposure to light. Any sign of sun bleaching on an auction lot bottle label is a big no-no in my book. On the other hand, badly sun struck VP bottles remain quite drinkable, but they are very different players, venturing into the tawny spectrum as far as drinking experience goes.

Port is a pretty robust player when it comes to temperature, but it does have its limits. The occasional foray into the 70s F during a heatwave is probably nothing to get too alarmed about, but 73F for the duration of the summer? I'd regard that as being potentially risky, but on the other hand there's nothing like a little experimentation.

If Glenn wants to bring a mainstream 80s bottle that's had a few such summers under it's belt, the next time he crosses the pond, I'll pull a matching one to compare it with.

Discussions with members of the Port trade lead me to believe that it's not heat, precisely, but rather heat combined with large (and rapid) swings in temperature. The prevailing theory, at least amongst the Portuguese, seems to be that holding bottles steady in the 65-70 range for years is nothing like having bottles swing with the daily weather where it may reach 100+ during the day but then back down into the 60s at night.

As I'm sure many here can attest, the temp in the Gaia cellars gets surprisingly warm. I've never actually checked it (lacking a convenient, accurate, portable thermometer) but it would not surprise me at all if the warmer parts of some of those cellars reach 72-73 degrees during the summer. They feel cool-ish because it's so hot outside, but I would be quite surprised to learn that they're actually in even the low 60s, let alone the upper 50s. Feels like upper 60s to low 70s to me.

73 is my summer daytime max temp but it isn't regularly reached because a) this is Seattle, and b) I have pretty good shade protecting the house during the afternoon sun. Also the weather (and thus the house) cools off into the mid to upper 60s every night.

[Tom Archer]

As I'm sure many here can attest, the temp in the Gaia cellars gets surprisingly warm. I've never actually checked it (lacking a convenient, accurate, portable thermometer) but it would not surprise me at all if the warmer parts of some of those cellars reach 72-73 degrees during the summer. They feel cool-ish because it's so hot outside, but I would be quite surprised to learn that they're actually in even the low 60s, let alone the upper 50s. Feels like upper 60s to low 70s to me.

Without naming names, some of the lodge bottle stores used to get indecently warm, and not just the old ones. When a new one was opened about a decade ago I was proudly shown the bottles' new home, but immediately realised it was far, far, too warm in there, with extremely rare old bottles leaking pathetically. As an architectural design it was expensive and impressive, but as functional storage place for bottles, an outright disaster.

That cellar, along with a number of others in Gaia that I've clocked, shared a common feature - a thermometer on the wall that was mysteriously broken..

[Eric Menchen]

Today the humidity where I live is 18%.

Hmm.. I'll wager your local drug store does a big trade in moisturiser and lip balm!

I will not take that bet. 30% yesterday. Wind shifted overnight and is from the NE today, so 93% today. Back to 32% Thursday.

Port on the right wall, other wines on the left wall. Cases, shelves, small bottles behind from where the picture was taken. On the other side of the plastic slat doorway is the chilling unit. That small area with the beer (and a few bottles of white wine and Champagne) is kept ~45°F. The wine side is around 53°F in a bottle near the floor, 55°F in the air near the ceiling. I think I have 5 temperature probes and one humidity probe in there. The temp on the beer side varies a small bit. The temp inside a 750ml bottle on the wine side varies less than a degree as I recall. I have a graph of it somewhere.

And no sunlight.

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[Scott Esterly]

Thanks everyone for these great insights.

Re: off-site storage...I checked and the closest to me has a $68 per month special for up-to three cases of wine. Other options begin at over $80 per month.

Re: wine fridges...If I go this route I will definitely go EuroCave since that seems like the "best" fridge option if I want to get 10+ years out of it at a minimum.

Re: whether or not I actually need temperature controlled storage...while my collection (about 60 bottles right now) is relatively small and has some tawny and Madeira that can be stored upright in my liquor cabinet, I have about two cases worth of young vintage port that I won't open for at least 10 years (and most are from the 2016, 2017 and 2019 vintages - so even longer).

I'm going to track the temperature and humidity in my basement and my guess is that it'll be relatively stable (I run a de-humidifier in the hot months, but I can adjust that to whatever percentage I would need).

I guess I could also just hold off on growing this collection of port that is necessitating more storage space...admittedly, this is not a likely course of action haha.

[Tom Archer]

Port on the right wall, other wines on the left wall.

You do realise that when you put two wine racks in a room, they breed..

Incidentally, do you know the duct tape trick when using conventional wine racks?

The steel horizontal bars on those racks are really bad at scraping back labels, but if you wrap about 2" of silver duct tape over each one, the problem is solved, and you hardly notice the tape is there. The glue on the tape is really bad at fouling scissors, but if you squirt some lighter fuel on the scissor blades every four or five cuts, it keeps them clear.

[Eric Menchen]

The steel horizontal bars on those racks are really bad at scraping back labels, but if you wrap about 2" of silver duct tape over each one, the problem is solved, and you hardly notice the tape is there.

My steel horizontal bars are wrapped in a plastic tubing to keep them from scraping the back labels.

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[Scott Esterly]

I'm a little leery about long term storage in my basement...I've been tracking the temp and humidity for three weeks now and there's a pretty big temperature fluctuation throughout the day (it's been as much as 9 degrees - 61 degrees low and 70 degrees high). There's always at least a 6 degree variation during the day. The problem is that, while it's a big basement, I finished a little more than half of it. The unfinished portion, where'd I'd store the port, is now a smaller space and near to the HVAC systems which cause the temp to rise when running.

The finished portion can easily accommodate a EuroCave/wine fridge (we have a toddler and the finished portion is just not suitable for a simple racking system right now - I would need to keep the wine in a fridge so it would be safe from various toddler shenanigans haha).

[Tom Archer]

I'm a little leery about long term storage in my basement...I've been tracking the temp and humidity for three weeks now and there's a pretty big temperature fluctuation throughout the day (it's been as much as 9 degrees - 61 degrees low and 70 degrees high). There's always at least a 6 degree variation during the day. The problem is that, while it's a big basement, I finished a little more than half of it. The unfinished portion, where'd I'd store the port, is now a smaller space and near to the HVAC systems which cause the temp to rise when running.

Boiler rooms do not make great cellars..

Consider boxing in your heating system with insulated panels (but don't stop air getting in if it burns gas) also consider investing in stackable water containers to buffer the temperature fluctuations. Seasonal change is normal, but day/night changes are bad news.

[Scott Esterly]

Wine Enthusiast gave me a great deal on an "outlet" EuroCave Premiere S. Their flat-rate shipping is expensive, but my overall cost was still less than the regular retail price (and that's including the 4 pack of replacement filters for the unit).

Storage crisis averted haha.

[Scott Esterly]

My first EuroCave! Will it be my last??? Haha

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[Scott Esterly]

Wondering how many people have learned this same lesson…I spent all that money on the EuroCave and it’s already filled up!!!!!!!

I think my wife *might* notice a second, much *larger* EuroCave should one magically appear, so I think I’m going to have to cool it for at least a little bit on port purchases.

Famous last words???

[Glenn E.]

LOL... I started with a Danby 56 in ~2009 which looks about the same size as your Eurocave. I then got a full-size Eurocave which I still have, and 2 other full-size refrigerators which have both been replaced by ex-Eric Levine, ex-Stewart Todd Transtherm fridges. All 4 fridges are over 10 years old at this point, so I'm expecting failures any year now... but hopefully not!

Oh, and they're not enough. I also have a 200-bottle wine rack that's full of Port, and somewhere between 10 and 15 cases just sitting on the floor in the front "office" which is really now the wine room.