Revisiting old posts you made on FTLOP

[Lindsay E.]

Tonight I was doing a FTLOP Forum search for Best Non-Declared Vintages, and for some reason, my search returned a post I created about 10 years ago with the title "Maderized Champagne versus Madeira...and the hype of 2011 vintage Port." Not remembering that I originally created this topic, I reread all the posts. It was an interesting read for several reasons: Primarily, I could see from the posts I made 10 years ago that my thinking about wine was at a different, more quizzical level. Reading my posts in this topic, I can almost step back in time and temporarily inhabit my perspective from a decade ago. Secondly, most of the questions I asked in my original topic, have now been answered with the hindsight of the past 10 years. Has anyone else on this forum had a similar experience? What have you learned either about yourself or your perspective on wine from reading you posts from a decade earlier?


For anyone wondering, I posed the following questions in that original post from 10 years ago:

1) Why isn't Madeira more popular in the U.S.?

2) Will the quality and scores of the 2011 Vintage Ports be enough to raise the popularity of Port wine in the US

Question #1 became irrelevant sometime around 2017 when vintage Madeira prices started shooting up at a rate that was almost on par with good Burgundy. Although, I never figured out why Madeira wasn't more popular in the U.S. prior to it steep rise in 2017, nor what led to Madeira's rapid ascent in popularity circa 2017.

Wine consumers have answered Question #2 over the past decade...Port, at least Vintage Port, does not seem anymore popular today as compared to 10 years ago. Colheita Tawnys have risen in popularity perhaps on their own or in part due to the rising interest in Madeira but Vintage Ports and other ruby variants like LBVs seem no more popular than they were in 2013 when I originally created the topic.

On a final note, my original post also broached the topic of oxidized/maderized Champagne. Eric Ifune took the time to point out that some Champagne is made in a deliberately oxidative style and recommended that I seek out a Champagne producer named Jacques Selosse. I'm sure I looked up the Selosse Champagnes and saw they retailed for about $220 and probably rolled my eyes at that price back in 2013. Fast forward to 2024 and I have been fortunate enough to have tried 9 bottles of Selosse since that time and consider myself even more fortunate to have a few bottles in my cellar.

[Eric Menchen]

I think your assessment of the popularity of vintage Port vs. colheitas and tawnies is correct. And I certainly witnessed the spike in Madeira prices around 2017 that you mentioned. I personally think Roy and Mannie have some responsibility for this with the many big dinners and tastings that were organized. I wished I liked Madeira enough prior to the price increases to have participated. But while there was a distinct uptick in prices, I would suggest that the increased attention to Madeira may have at least started a bit earlier, around the turn of the century. Here's a small read:
https://www.rarewineco.com/articles/mad ... -pairings/
The seeds were planted earlier, and then when the plants grew, everyone had to buy.

[Glenn E.]

Yeah the uptick in Madeira prices definitely started before 2017. I can still recall when the 1875 D'Oliveiras Malvasia Family Reserve was $300 and I thought that was crazy expensive. That would have been circa 2010, and even then Roy would tell me how they used to be $175.

By the time I finally gave in a bought my bottles, they were $840 each and that was in early 2016.

Of course now they're closer to $1600 and that's if you're even able to find one for sale. (I think RWC has them currently... they come and go.)

[Eric Ifune]

I definitely blame Roy and Mannie!
No one was really drinking old Madeira prior to these tastings getting publicized. I remember the 1968 D'Oliveiras Boal being sold in the Funchal duty free for 60 euros.

[Lindsay E.]

I definitely blame Roy and Mannie!
No one was really drinking old Madeira prior to these tastings getting publicized. I remember the 1968 D'Oliveiras Boal being sold in the Funchal duty free for 60 euros.

Well, Roy is definitely to blame for getting me into Madeira...but since then, fortunately I've realized that the pleasure I derive from Madeira has a limit (which is somewhere around the the 50-60 year age, Beyond this age, I find madeiras to be very complex with "bitter" type flavors, but not that pleasurable for my palate.

[Roy Hersh]

Lindsey wrote: (A.)

I personally think Roy and Mannie have some responsibility for this with the many big dinners and tastings that were organized.

Eric I. wrote: (B.)

I definitely blame Roy and Mannie!
No one was really drinking old Madeira prior to these tastings getting publicized. I remember the 1968 D'Oliveiras Boal being sold in the Funchal duty free for 60 euros.

Lindsey wrote: (C.)
Well, Roy is definitely to blame for getting me into Madeira...but since then, fortunately I've realized that the pleasure I derive from Madeira has a limit (which is somewhere around the the 50-60 year age, Beyond this age, I find madeiras to be very complex with "bitter" type flavors, but not that pleasurable for my palate.



A. You're blaming me for Madeira prices skyrocketing in the past decade? My feelings are so ... like Dr. Evil. Yes, of course I wanted to insure that by writing about them in my newsletter, also published in the World of Fine Wine magazine, that none of us could afford to drink them on a regular basis anymore. It worked. Lindsey, I remember our first time drinking Madeira together in the good old days, always with your sweet dog at your side!

B. Eric, "Et tu Brute?" If you dig back the Terrantez and every grape that followed through about 2019 ... was really the 2nd time that Mannie and I collaborated on Madeira tastings. In 2007. I am sure you were at the one in NYC, at 11 Madison, a restaurant that I used a lot back in the day for Port and Madeira events ... because I once took a photo of Dr. Stephen Shapiro breaking out his pack of syringes to take samples from his glass to save sips in test tubes he also brought along. Additionally, Marco or you ... I do not remember exactly, were playing around, as if they were about to inject his bald head with the Madeira in the syringe. I had never seen that done before. Also that night, many saw me take all leftovers of an ounce (or three) that were left in all the bottles and freaked out when I combined them all together that night, into one bottle. And instead of two people getting to rush to grab their favorite leftovers, instead, I stashed that bottle and sent it around the table AFTER dinner. I remember the group scored it 94 points as an average for all. A decent cuvee. Hard to believe that was 17 years ago, 2 years after FTLOP's website went live.

C. Blaming me again, huh?
So you've never had a sweeter-style Malvasia, Moscatel or Boal Madeira more than 100 years old that blew your mind, (so far) sir?


D. To Glenn "Dr. Tawny" Elliott, I remember the very early days of your Port tasting, not the first ... but early. And Madeira too. You swore Madeira was not your thing. But I kept "forcing you" to drink it. For years you claimed, "It is ok, but not my thing. I mean the sweet ones I like, Terrantez, Verdelho and Sercial, not so much!" And while you better get your butt to Madeira before everything is gone ... I would bet you own a case or two AT LEAST, and I have 3 stashed here, waiting for you to fetch them. Before I drink all 3 in one night with friends.

[Glenn E.]

D. To Glenn "Dr. Tawny" Elliott, I remember the very early days of your Port tasting, not the first ... but early. And Madeira too. You swore Madeira was not your thing. But I kept "forcing you" to drink it. For years you claimed, "It is ok, but not my thing. I mean the sweet ones I like, Terrantez, Verdelho and Sercial, not so much!" And while you better get your butt to Madeira before everything is gone ... I would bet you own a case or two AT LEAST, and I have 3 stashed here, waiting for you to fetch them. Before I drink all 3 in one night with friends.

At this point you are very much correct! I believe that I have 2 cases of Madeira stashed away... possibly even closing in on 3 cases. With those 3 bottles that you have stashed for me... let's just call it 3 cases.

But they really do have to be the sweeter end of the spectrum. Even Malvasia isn't necessarily right for me as the house styles vary significantly. But a D'Oliveiras Malvasia is a pretty safe bet... the older, the better!

[Eric Ifune]

Not so much as just you Roy, all of us.
When you and Mannie started to do the tastings at Del Posto, Madeira was only just starting to be rediscovered. Those tastings really put gasoline on the fire! I was following auction prices pretty closely in those days. Wow!

[Lucas S]

And here I am just trying to buy a 10 year old Madeira for less than $40, twice as much as a 10 year old tawny.

Perhaps by the end of the decade, production will catch up or tawny demand will rise further to narrow that gap?

[Lindsay E.]

A. You're blaming me for Madeira prices skyrocketing in the past decade? My feelings are so ... like Dr. Evil. Yes, of course I wanted to insure that by writing about them in my newsletter, also published in the World of Fine Wine magazine, that none of us could afford to drink them on a regular basis anymore. It worked. Lindsey, I remember our first time drinking Madeira together in the good old days, always with your sweet dog at your side!


C. Blaming me again, huh?
So you've never had a sweeter-style Malvasia, Moscatel or Boal Madeira more than 100 years old that blew your mind, (so far) sir?

It wasn't me blaming you (Roy) for the price inflation on Madeira....I believe that was the two Erics. I was actually more curious about why Madeira wasn't more popular prior to the price inflation.

I have had some 100+ year Madeira's that I thoroughly enjoyed (most of them with you.) The most recent was a D'Oliveiras Malvesia Reserva 1875 (bottled in 1970s and recorked in 2015) that I tasted on 12/15/22 (not with you) and I scored it 98+ points. This was at a tasting event, where most people tried the Madeira at the end of the event, right before departing. Many guests skipped this Madeira all together. I stayed a bit later than most guest and when I was one of the last 4 people, their was still over half the bottle of 1885 Malvesia and the host said I could drink as much of the Madeira as I wanted, being that almost everyone had left the event. It was fantastic, but by the end of the second glass, the acidity was starting to fatigue my palate. It was so fatiguing that I would have gladly traded the remainder of the bottle for a Boal or Malvesia from the mid 1950-60s. The first glass was marvelous, but at current retail price of $1,595.00 for the 1875, I would rather have 4 bottles of a great mid-1950s-1960s boal or malmsey where I can enjoy multiple glasses in succession....or several bottles of similarly aged tawny Port. I'm not trying to disparage the very old Madeiras, but I've learned that for my palate and my wallet, I get the most pleasure from the 50-60 year old Madeiras and tawny Ports.

My main reason for creating this post was to point out how fascinated I was with the questions and perspective I had 10 years ago when I made that initial post, and to observe where my perspective is today...10 years down the road.