Douro Wine discussion thread

[Roy Hersh]

We all know there are many very fine Douro DOC wines these days. However, the vast majority of them are over $20. I believe that the missing link is having some really solid 85-90 point quality Douro wines (both white AND red) that are in the $8-$20.00 range. This would quickly gain more notoriety for Douro wines if there were say, a dozen bottlings that fit into this range (quality and price) and were available here in North America.

What do you think?

[Frederick Blais]

I think it is just a question of export market and quantities. As you know there is a vast majority of those wines available when you are in Portugal. Is it all sold inland, is there enough for the local market plus export market? If you aim that range of price, you have to bring the quantities to satisfy a buzz in a thirsty market like USA.

In Quebec we have many wines in this category, but most is not sold to the SAQ, but trough private importations that mainly aim the restaurants because mainly I believe the quantities are not available for large public.

[Moses Botbol]

I buy a Douro wine 2000 Cado which is an excellent value under $10.00. This 2000 still has a lot of life in it. I usually find it for $7.00, but I do not think that will be the case in other areas of the States.

WS gives it 86 points.

[Mahmoud Ali]

Here in Edmonton there are plenty of Portuguese wines under C$20 that are very good.

For a start, off the top of my head, there is the perennially good Quinta do Crasto Douro for C$18-20 (I'm eyeing an older vintage '03 that I spotted recently); the Vinhos Sogrape Douro Reserva 2002 (a very nice wine) for C$16-18; JM Fonseca Domini Douro 2005 (2003 was better) for C$13-15; Caves Alianca Quinta da Garrida Dao 2001 for C$13-15; JM Fonseca Jose de Sousa 2003 for C$12-14; Sogrape's Vinha do Monte ('04 or '05) for C$12; and others like Periquita, Peccadore (sp?). There is a wine store here that specializes in Portuguese wines and there is a host of other wines under C$20 that I have yet to try, including a Bomfin Reserva by Symintinon.

All of these wines have the "Portuguese profile", wines that have a distinctly different cast due to the blend of native varietals, wines with structure, minerality and a refreshing finish that makes them so compatible with a meal. Haven't had a bad one yet.

Cheers.................Mahmoud

[michael miller]

Not much here in the Nashville area. Crasto is well over 20 a bottle. Roriz makes a very good wine from a round 15 a bottle. Douro reds are a hard sell.

Michael

[Pedro Guimaraes]

My 0,02cents...

I guess some of you know that you actually buy the same wine cheaper than we do in Portugal....Crasto V.V. costs usually 30euros, regular Crasto costs usually 10/12euros an the list goes on....i wish i could get my hands at Vale Meão at around 50dollars!!!! The other point is that i rarely find a "truthfull" bottle of wine for less than 15euros and the immense amount of wines being made in a way to reah the 86 - 89 points mark in such prize are usually non atractive to me and very far from whatever got me into collecting/drinking wines.

The more "difficult" a region is the more i underline my words...if you see a Chateauneuf du Pape for 10euros, do you buy it? I hope the Douro doesnt feel it has to cover all areas of the market...cause cheap wine in such region can only mean 2 things: bad quality or cheating...

Whats beautiful about wine is the unique experience a bottle can provide...

[Brian C.]

I like Roy's idea, that there needs to be a good entry level price for quality Douro wines. I have tried some of the cheaper offerings of Douro wines. There was one from Quinta do Bomfim that was about $15 here, but it wasn't anything special. There was one other one, name escapes me, that wasn't bad. It featured a rebolo on the label. We also tried an offering of white table wine from the Symingtons that ran around $15, but that wasn't anything special, either. In any event, these offerings are far and few between, and not seen in Chicago very often. Given that a good chunk of the Douro region is devoted to port production, there might not be the economic incentive for a producer to make a table wine in the $8-20 range in lieu of producing port. At the end of the day, are producers going to put their best grapes in port or in table wine? Or maybe I'm wrong, and there's enough land in the Douro region to do both easily. If so, then what are they waiting for?

[Roy Hersh]

Mahmoud,

You make an excellent point. It has shocked me that with a dearth of reasonably priced wines in the two wine shops that I've been in at least twice apiece, that Douro wines is an area where pricing is quite reasonable. Amazing, considering how crazy the prices are for Port and just about everything else up there in terms of wines from around the globe. Coincidentally, I find the same is true in Vancouver BC.

[Roy Hersh]

Brian wrote:

Given that a good chunk of the Douro region is devoted to port production, there might not be the economic incentive for a producer to make a table wine in the $8-20 range in lieu of producing port. At the end of the day, are producers going to put their best grapes in port or in table wine? Or maybe I'm wrong, and there's enough land in the Douro region to do both easily. If so, then what are they waiting for?

Let's take these one at a time ...

a. from my viewpoint, there is a ton of economic incentive for a table wine producer (whether or not they do Ports too) to produce reasonably price DOC wines. Whether or not in lieu of Port we'll get to that point in a moment. But since the cost of grapes for table wine are arguably subsidized by the Port wine producers, the incentive is there. I know this will sound odd to many people, but the cost of producing a $15 bottle of wine and $50 bottle of wine ... is tiny. The better grapes cost a bit more and one may choose a higher grade of cork, bottle, capsule and label ... but those come out to maybe $1-$3 all in. Shocking? Anyway, the real point here is that to penetrate any new export market, a company really needs to lead by offering value before cult wines are accepted. I learned this lesson when trying to bring proprietary blends of So. African wine into the USA. But the model was originally set with Australian wine circa 1985.

b. Where are the best grapes headed ... Port or table wine? This is a fun question we ask when we are over there. We ask Niepoort, Quinta do Crasto, Quinta do Noval and Quinta do Portal, Vale Meao and Vale d Maria and others. The opinions vary. We now have a well known owner/winemaker here in our midst that I know is not shy and WILL go on the record and I am sure he'll see this. His name is Joäo Roseira, from Quinta do Infantado. He is a very bright, sometimes a contrarian maverick that is aggressive in his desire to promote the wines of the region, not just his own. I am sure we'll be seeing much more of him in the coming months.
My own belief is that from a financial standpoint, DOC wines will be the life's blood, better known as "cash flow" mechanism that will allow some small producers to continue making and selling Ports as that becomes an ever less competitive market. It is much harder for a small producer in the Douro to compete with the big boys ... IN EXPORT MARKETS ... with Port, than it is with table wines! Where will the best grapes wind up ... let's see if Joao has some idea.

c. There is no shortage of land in the Douro. It is a region that is bigger than Napa and Sonoma combined, if that helps to put it in perspective. There are limiting factors, the "DOC" or demarcated area for growing grapes might be one of them. My own personal view is that although the great producers will want to remain in the DOC delimited areas and for example, a Quinta like Infantado which uses only "A rated" vineyards for their wines will probably choose to stay in the DOC. However, there will be some that see the outlying areas, especially in the ultra-hot Douro Superior where there are some great locations available and flatter vineyard sites to choose from, that are outside the DOC boundaries ... I believe in coming years we'll see these being further explored and being sold under the broader Tras-os-Montes appellation, rather than strictly Douro. But this is just in the very early stages and those who own top vineyard property in the Douro today, will probably stay there.

[Moses Botbol]

I see a many Douro's under $20. It may just be the area of the country I am in, but just about any liquor store will have a couple. I run into very few under $20 Douro wines I wouldn't buy again. One must like old world wine style, and I think that is what would prevent Douro wines from being more popular.

Just like there's a lot of excellent wines from France under $20, but the "yellow tail" still prevails.

The marketing budget is not there to promote Douro's or even the French wines that are clear winners at the under $20 price point to me.

Symington's Altano is an excellent example of a great inexpensive wine. I can't think of a better spent $7.00 for wine.

[Roy Hersh]

Altano is serviceable at that price, not something I would typically pull to drink though. I like the Bomfim table wine better although it is under $20 too, it is more than the Altano. In fact, there is an Altano Reserva coming too and some organics are planned for it as well.

I am not sure if I understand the logic about people not liking the old world style of Douro wines though. Most people I know, only complain about new world styles, not old.

[Moses Botbol]

I am not sure if I understand the logic about people not liking the old world style of Douro wines though. Most people I know, only complain about new world styles, not old.

You run with a select crowd. How many of your friends are drinking Toasted Head and Yellow Tail? Obviously, a lot people are drinking those as the shelves are full of it.

[Roy Hersh]

Admittedly my friends are mostly serious wine geeks. Yellow Tail to them is an amberjack! A Toasted Head is what they wake up with the morning after our tasting group gets together.

[Andy Velebil]

Altano is serviceable at that price, not something I would typically pull to drink though. I like the Bomfim table wine better although it is under $20 too, it is more than the Altano. In fact, there is an Altano Reserva coming too and some organics are planned for it as well.

For the first time I found an Altano Reserva, the 2003, at a store not to far from me. It was only $20 so I grabbed one and had it yesterday to see how it was. I'll post a TN in a bit, but it was a very nice bottle that still had some aging potential to it. I thought it to be a very good bottle, and at that price point a no brainer.