What is the oldest LBV you've seen?

[Andy Velebil]

I couldn't help but notice that some companies state they were the "first" to do such and such. When it comes to LBV's i've seen this claim made and was wondering what was the oldest LBV you've seen, drank, know to exist, or possess?

The oldest I've heard of is a 1945 Ferreira Porto Late Bottled Vintage and a 1959 Robertson Porto Rebello Valente LBV (cellartracker.com shows someone with 72 bottles of the Robertson, so I'm inclined to believe they exist). I am not able to confirm the Ferreira at the moment though.

[Ronald Wortel]

I saw the Ramos Pinto 1927 LBV (first known LBV) in a store once. But at around 1300 euro I didn't bite...

[Andy Velebil]

I saw the Ramos Pinto 1927 LBV (first known LBV) in a store once. But at around 1300 euro I didn't bite...

Ouch! That's a lot of money for an LBV

[Michael M.]

This LBV (bottled 1932) is also mentioned in Richard Mayson's book "Port and the Douro" (edition 2004, p. 301).

[Paul_B]

yet many people still believe Taylor invented LBV with the 1965 LBV bottled in 69.
I guess the english words "late bottled vintage" were used before but perhaps the definition as it stands today with IVDP is probably base on this taylor bottle. Perhaps the older examples above all have different barrel and bottle time and hence not consistant and up to the producer. So a wine that is fined/filtered and bottled between 4th and 6th year probably started with this taylor.

but what do I know, just speculating.
/paul

[Paul Symington]

There is more misinformation about LBV than just about any Port category, with some wild claims made to say the least. The real story is that for centuries the actual bottling time for Vintage Port was not defined. The producer would decide when he wanted to bottle, sometimes aftet two years in cask, sometimes after 4 or even 5 years. When the IVDP decided, shortly after the II World War, that the bottling times should be defined, some producers pushed for two years but some pushed for longer. My father, Michael, just back from the war, was working with his father Maurice and his uncles as a Port producer in our company in 1948, and he was actually on the committee that decided this (called the Gremio at the time, now the AEVP) with the IVDP. The compromise solution found was that Vintage Port would be bottled in its 2nd year and that a new category would be formed, called, very logically; Late Bottled Vintage Port. I believe that the first such wine was Ramos Pinto (who would certainly have had older wines that could use this new designation as they historically bottled their Vintage Ports later). My friend Joao Nicolao de Almeida from Ramos Pinto can certainly confirm this for you. Obviously the wine was supposed to be bottled un-filtered and un-fined, just like Vintage Port. We ourselves still have bottles in our cellar of Dow's 1964 LBV and Warre wines from the 1950's made in this way and duly registered with the IVDP. At a later stage Cockburns decided to launch a filtered LBV, in an attempt to widen the Port market that was very very difficult at that time, but the outcry from all the major Port houses was such that they rapidly withdrew the wine. Peter Cobb, retired Director of Cockburn's, can confirm this fact for you. Later Taylor's introduced a filtered LBV that became a considerable commercial success in the UK and credit to them for having done so. We later introduced a Graham LBV and so have many others. These wines have become one of the mainstays of the Port trade (and of course for the Douro) and are essential to its survival. Incidently, with our Warre's LBV we have always stuck to the original intention: 4 year bottling, no fining or filtration, driven cork and above all, we mature it in bottle for at least 3 years before release. A different (and inevitably more expensive) LBV. But both styles of LBV have a rightful place in any Port lovers cellar, they are both excellent wines.

From another warm and sunny day in the Pinhao valley. I will now take my dogs for a walk through my vineyard and check how the grapes are coming along,

Paul

[Roy Hersh]

Thanks Paul. A truly great read and your participation here is very much appreciated. I am very much looking forward to seeing you next month!

I only had the pleasure of meeting your father once. I sat a seat away from him at The Factory House in May 1994. It was a true pleasure and distinct honor for me at the time. Peter and James were also there, so it was an amazing Wednesday luncheon to say the least. Peter Cobb, Bruce Guimaraens and so many other great names were in attendance that particular day and it was like being amongst royalty ... but even better. These were the legendary names and I still look at the photos I took that day, with humility and admiration. One of the greatest days of my life, which I'll never forget. Admittedly, I was extremely nervous and remember my hand shaking holding the glass of 10 year old Tawny Port served as an aperitif prior to lunch. I was awe struck.

I've never had any LBV older than the 1982 Warre's which I had purchased six bottles of circa 1993 in Chantilly, VA. Maybe someday I will have the opportunity to try a really old one.

[Ronald Wortel]

Great post Paul, thanks for that!

The Warre's LBV is a personal favourite, and I think it is for many people who post here.

The oldest LBV I ever tried was a 1967 (from Guedes). It was lovely, but had completely transformed into tawny. But unfiltered LBV's from the 1980's can still be very good today. I've had several vintages of Niepoort and Romaneira that were impressive, and a 1987 Quinta de Baldias that was enjoyable as well.

[Andy Velebil]

Paul,

Thank you for the detailed reply. There is a lot of mis-information about LBV's and I can honestly say that even I was confused as to exactly when LBV's came into being as we know them today. So thank you for setting the facts straight in this matter.

[Glenn E.]

We ourselves still have bottles in our cellar of Dow's 1964 LBV

Ooh, now I have another 1964 Port to try to track down.

Thanks for the great information, Paul!

[Kurt Wieneke]

Paul,
Thank you for the insight on the history of LBV's. I am partial to the Warre's and Offley LBV's. The 1994 Warre's LBV is a great port, with years ahead of it still. On the other hand, a Warre's 1990 LBV I had recently was not so great - I noted that it was distinctive, dark, cloying, and one dimensional. Possibly shutdown, I do not know.

[Gustavo Devesas]

Interesting subject.

So far the oldest I've seen it's also the oldest LBV that I have in my private collection - 1967 Poças;

I also have some 1982 Valriz (Coimbra de Mattos), 1987 Quinta de Baldias, 1986 Quinta dos Murças, 1973 Quinta do Noval, among others and just bought a month ago some of 1983 - my birth year - Taylor's and Calém.

Well, after another hard but always exciting day in Porto now it's the moment to gather all my energies and finally enjoy my favorite season of the year. It's time to enjoy a precious weekend in the Douro, to smell the lagares/wineries and finally "fulfill the dream" of visiting Roriz.

Gustavo

[Paul_B]

Nice to have industry folks come in and set the record straight or give us a practial perspective not to mention great anecdotes. I attend other forums on completely different subject (HIFI audio) and only some are graced with current or retired industry folks and it makes a difference.
Kudos for Roy and the team for attracting a few here and lucky us.

So now that we have the facts on LBV, maybe someone can provide the same for "Crusted"...in a new post/thread.

I keep re-reading Paul S' last sentence and instantly, my mind wonders off to that part of the world and how it must be just a terrible job, everyday, day in day out....awful.

cheers
Paul B.

[Tom Archer]

maybe someone can provide the same for "Crusted"...

As far as I can establish, unfiltered full ruby ports, including vintage port, were generically known and shipped in bulk as crusted or crusting ports. The better quality of these were bottled and sold as vintage port, while the rest seem to have been offered as crusted port, or possibly just 'Port'.

The words 'Vintage' and 'Crusted' remained somewhat interchangeable right up until the 1960's - early SQVP's from Graham were mostly listed as Crusted, while Noval produced some single vintage crusted ports in lesser years that were, essentially, an intermediate between an LBV and an SQVP.

Incidentally, when I talked to Christian Seely about the Noval single vintage crusted ports earlier this year; I gained the impression that we may see their return..

Tom

[Eric Menchen]

This doesn't give any of the history, but it covers things today--here's Article 6 of the IVDP Regulation n.º 36/2005, which covers crusted:

Artigo 6.o
Crusted
1—«Crusted»—vinho do Porto com características organolépticas de elevada qualidade, retinto e encorpado, no momento do engarrafamento, de aroma e paladar finos, obtido por lotação de vinhos de diversos anos de forma a se obter complementaridade de características organolépticas, cujas características peculiares levam à formação de depósito (crosta) na parede da garrafa onde se efectua
parte do estágio e reconhecido pelo IVDP com direito ao uso da designação nos termos dos números seguintes.
2—Para obter a apreciação prévia da designação «Crusted», devem ser entregues no IVDP quatro amostras do vinho a apreciar, o qual deverá reunir as características organolépticas referidas no número anterior.
3—O engarrafamento do vinho previamente apreciado para a designação «Crusted» deverá ser feito no prazo máximo de 30 dias após aquela apreciação e comunicado ao IVDP o final de engarrafamento para se proceder ao apuramento de existências.
4—O registo definitivo do vinho apreciado previamente—condição indispensável à autorização para início de comercialização apenas deverá ser efectuado depois de decorrido o prazo mínimo de três anos contados a partir da data de apreciação prévia referida no n.o 2, devendo apresentar na garrafa um depósito aderente às paredes.
5—No vinho do Porto com direito ao uso da designação «Crusted» é permitido o uso da menção «Bottle matured» ou «Envelhecido em garrafa».

And here's a Google translation:

Crusted
1- 'Crusted' port-wine-with organoleptic high quality, dark red and full bodied at the time of bottling, aroma and taste fine, obtained by blending wines several years in order to achieve complementarity of features organoleptic characteristics peculiar lead to the formation deposit (crust) on the cylinder wall where the goods part of the stage and recognized by IVDP entitled to the use of designation under the following paragraphs.
2- For a preliminary assessment of the name 'Crusted' must IVDP be delivered in four samples of wine to enjoy, which should meet the organoleptic characteristics mentioned in the prev.
3- The bottling of wine previously assessed for name 'Crusted' should be made within 30 days after that assessment and reported to IVDP the final bottling to make the findings of stocks.
4- The final register of wine previously appreciated-condition essential for authorization to initiate sales only should be made after the expiry of the minimum three years counted from the date that the preliminary assessment in 2 and present the bottle deposit adhering to walls.
5- Port wine with the right to use the name 'Crusted' is allowed to use the word 'Bottle matured' or 'aged in bottle '.

[Julian D. A. Wiseman]

Crusting? Crusted?

From the Wine Society catalogue of June 1952:

From the Wine Society catalogue dated Spring 1962:

From the Wine Society catalogue dated Spring 1964:

I suspect that the Quinta Mileu is LBV, but thought you might wish to judge for yourself.

Indeed, is this the earliest reference to Late Bottled Vintage in a merchant's catalogue?

Depends on whether you are restricting it to things described as LBV.

From the Wine Society catalogue, November 1952:

From the Wine Society catalogue dated February 1965:

Likewise, I suspect that the Roncao 1944 bottled 1948 is late-bottled, but — by the standards of the day — not late by much. […]

(For these purposes this extract exhausts my Wine Society source.)

[Roy Hersh]

Fascinating!

Thanks Julian.

[Mahmoud Ali]

Uncle Tom, I don't think there is such a thing as a "single vintage crusted port" though you may find a crusted port (made from a blend of a few years' vintage ports) with the year of bottling. They are considered a step above LBVs and are often very good.

Churchill's make an excellent Crusted Port. I was lucky enough to find a single case of it on sale for C$25 a bottle earlier this year, an absolute bargain. I served one to my small group of tasters and had to part with a few bottles. Delicious, silky and elegant, this bottling was a revelation (I think it was a 2003 bottling).

Also, if you ever see Churchill's White Port don't hesitate to try it. My port-expert friend said it was the best white port he had ever tasted and immediately went out and bought some. Don't worry about the maderized looking coppery colour and the posibility of sediment. The retailer thought the port was bad and was going to return the case but I was curious to try it. He said I could have it at cost if I wanted. I tried it and it and found it to be dry, nutty, and complex, almost sherry-like. I loved it. Yes, I had to part with some of them too. Churchill's age their white port in barrels for about 10 years and is considered to be the best producer of white port.

Cheers..................Mahmoud.

PS: Like Gustavo the oldest LBV I've seen is the 1982 Warre's (Edit: Oops, I mean '82 Smith Woodhouse) that is in my cellar. Actually, I forgot I had it but came across it when I had to move my cellar earlier this year (twice as a matter of fact). In fact the 1982 Warre's was the first Traditional LBV I'd ever had, served to me by my port-expert friend. Naturally my bottle is reserved to be opened with him.

[Al B.]

I've never had any LBV older than the 1982 Warre's which I had purchased six bottles of circa 1993 in Chantilly, VA. Maybe someday I will have the opportunity to try a really old one.

Roy, I have a feeling that you may have had an LBV that was older than the 1982 Warre that you mention above. When you visited London in November 2005 I seem to recall that Linden Wilkie brought with him an LBV from the 1960s that we used to wash down dinner. I don't remember the details nor do I have my notes with me, but I'm pretty sure of the vague facts.

[Derek T.]

I've never had any LBV older than the 1982 Warre's which I had purchased six bottles of circa 1993 in Chantilly, VA. Maybe someday I will have the opportunity to try a really old one.

Roy, I have a feeling that you may have had an LBV that was older than the 1982 Warre that you mention above. When you visited London in November 2005 I seem to recall that Linden Wilkie brought with him an LBV from the 1960s that we used to wash down dinner. I don't remember the details nor do I have my notes with me, but I'm pretty sure of the vague facts.

It was a Dow LBV 1960 - I am sure the bottle, with the remnants of the red wax seal, are still at The Crusting Pipe