Inquiry about bottle condition

[Eric S]

Hi Everyone,

I'm relatively new here. I've been enjoying reading this forum over the past few weeks and I have a question that I haven't found the answer to here (my apologies if its been discussed, but I didn't find it).

I found a 1963 bottle of Dow being offered for what appears to be somewhat below "market" value at an online retailer. Being a little surprise by the pricing, I was in contact via email and asked about the condition of the bottle: fill level, cork condition, visible signs of seepage, etc. The response I received is that they would send me a digital image of the bottle some time tomorrow. Assuming such image arrives, what are the kinds of things I should look for? How easy will it be to hide "problems" in the image ( using angle, perspective, lighting, etc) and then duck behind a "we provided an image before you purchased" type of thing?

Am I being overly cautious about this or is this this an appropriate response to receive?

Thanks,
Eric

[Moses Botbol]

Make sure to get pictures of the capsole. '63 Dow is a lovely port.

[Derek T.]

Eric,

It is fairly common for retailers to supply digital images but if you have any hesitation I would advise you to ask the retailer to describe what he sees rather than just relying on the image. It is possible to see the fill level, condition of the capsule, signs of seepage etc from a good set of high resolution photos with the correct lighting but that doesn't always happen. If in doubt, ask the questions again. If the retailer is reluctant or refuses to give you an answer then he is prossibly trying to hide something.

Derek

[Moses Botbol]

Protruding cork and light color are among the worst things a bottle can have. Port is pretty resilient, so odds are in your favor as a consumer.

[Andy Velebil]

What they said, and if you get the picture, please upload it here so we as a group can also look at it. That helps us in assessing things better.

And to the forum, we're glad you've decided to join in the forum fun. Never feel like you can't ask a question, on this forum no question is ever to "small." We're all here to help each other.

[Eric S]

Thanks for the tips, guys! I very much appreciate your insights. I was supposed to receive a digital image today, but it never showed up. I will post it when it arrives. I was hoping to wrap things up and have my bottles shipped soon as the overnight temperatures in the area are beginning to hit to upper 20s and lower 30s.

I was first introduced to vintage port by several friends years ago at a professional conference that I attend each year. One taste and I was hooked! I would like to slowly build a small collection of port wines and have been trying to read as much as possible. I figure if I pick up a few newer and a few older bottles each year, I'll have a ready supply of things to enjoy in the near future as well as some to hold onto for the coming years. Its rather disappointing to look as some of the more recent vintages and realize that they need another 30+ years to mature, but I'll persevere!

Thanks,
Eric

[Glenn E.]

I would like to slowly build a small collection of port wines

Good luck with that!

One serious recommendation is that if you're going to invest in a wine fridge (or even a wine cellar for that matter) you should buy at least double the capacity that you think you're going to need.

When I first started out, I figured a 50-bottle wine fridge would be plenty. One 50-bottle and two 200-bottle fridges later, I wish I'd just gone ahead and bought the 500-bottle fridge that I saw at Costco and laughed at because it seemed so ridiculously large.

[Eric S]

When I first started out, I figured a 50-bottle wine fridge would be plenty. One 50-bottle and two 200-bottle fridges later, I wish I'd just gone ahead and bought the 500-bottle fridge that I saw at Costco and laughed at because it seemed so ridiculously large.

Yikes I was just looking at a few in the 24-30 bottle range and thinking that would probably suffice. My problem is that I already have too many expensive hobbies, so I don't really go whole hog into any one thing, but rotate my time (and money) from hobby to hobby, spending a year or two focusing on each one. I am hoping not to get too swept away, but even mild cases of OCD are sometimes difficult to overcome

[Moses Botbol]

Yikes I was just looking at a few in the 24-30 bottle range and thinking that would probably suffice.

Do you have a basement? Put the bottles in their cases stacked on the cool side of the basement and that should work fine for you. Port is a robust wine.

[Eric S]

I received the image of the bottle. I was told that the fill level is excellent - upper half of the neck.


Asking price is $200. Thoughts? Reactions?

Eric

[Eric S]

Do you have a basement? Put the bottles in their cases stacked on the cool side of the basement and that should work fine for you. Port is a robust wine.

Yep, 2/3 of the basement is finished (heated and air conditioned with forced air). The remaining 1/3 of the basement is concrete block wall and the temperature of this area varies from a low of 59-60 in the winter months to a high of 70 in the summer months. Humidity floats from 45-60% throughout the year (I use a dehumidifier in the finished area during the summer months and pull about a gallon of water every other day or so.

[Moses Botbol]

The remaining 1/3 of the basement is concrete block wall and the temperature of this area varies from a low of 59-60 in the winter months to a high of 70 in the summer months. Humidity floats from 45-60% throughout the year (I use a dehumidifier in the finished area during the summer months and pull about a gallon of water every other day or so.

You're all set then to just store port on the floor stacked up in boxes. Don't bother with a wine fridge until "you're there".

[Glenn E.]

Yikes I was just looking at a few in the 24-30 bottle range and thinking that would probably suffice. My problem is that I already have too many expensive hobbies, so I don't really go whole hog into any one thing, but rotate my time (and money) from hobby to hobby, spending a year or two focusing on each one. I am hoping not to get too swept away, but even mild cases of OCD are sometimes difficult to overcome

Here's the thing - Port needs many years to age. The commonly accepted rule of thumb is 21 years (drinking age, after all ), but a more realistic target is 30 years. Even if you only want to be able to drink, say, 6 bottles a year then you'd need 180 bottles (6 per year x 30 years) to be able to support your drinking habit.

I drink about 1 per month out of my cellar, so need to build up to 360 bottles evenly spaced in age so that I can continue that pace as long as I want. (I drink more Port than that, but most of my consumption is 20-yr old tawnies which I buy as needed.) I needed to buy fridges because we don't have air conditioning and we don't have a basement. But as Moses pointed out, you can probably just stack your cases in your basement and you'll be fine. You might want a "small" fridge for really old Ports, or for ones you think you might actually want to keep for 30+ years, but most of your Port will be fine in your basement.

[Glenn E.]

Asking price is $200. Thoughts? Reactions?

The bottle looks like it is in excellent condition. If the fill level is as high as they claim (which you can't see in the picture, but have no reason to doubt) then $200 sounds about right to me in the US.

[Eric S]

...if you only want to be able to drink, say, 6 bottles a year then you'd need 180 bottles (6 per year x 30 years) to be able to support your drinking habit.

Sure Go ahead and use logic... OK, perhaps I was underestimating a little bit But you make it sound dirty with the phrase "drinking habit"

As for the bottle condition, I very much appreciate your assessment. To me, it looks pretty good: the wax appears to be intact, the selo also appears intact, and the fill-level is higher than I expected for a nearly 50 year old bottle. The color and condition of the selo seems to be consistent with the age of the bottle... But I'm still pretty new at this, thus I value the impression of more experienced eyes.

Thanks!
Eric

[Eric Menchen]

Asking price is $200. Thoughts? Reactions?

Seems reasonable for a lovely looking bottle; and consistent with a 1966 Dow I bought in the last two years.

[Roy Hersh]

Hi Eric and again, welcome to FTLOP. Glad to have you join us (unless you are a Steeler's fan). Just kidding.

You wrote:

I am hoping not to get too swept away

Well, in all honesty ... many of those who write here in this Forum, began in the identical manner, with that same hope. Sadly for their hope but fortunately for the Port business, those hopes were long ago forgotten. Thus ... stories like Glenn's issue with storage space.

Moses made a great point about using your "passive cellar" until you see the level of interest you have in Ports a year or two down the road. By that time you will have likely garnered over 10 cases of Port (or significantly more) ... especially if you stay here ... and you can make a more sound decision.

Now to your bottle. I am a bit concerned with the appearance at the bottom of the capsule and the discoloration (seepage? likely or worse, premox) of the Selo. I would ABSOLUTELY heed Derek's advice and ask the questions before making the purchase. When a bottle such as 1963 Dow is selling in the USA at retail for $200, there has to be a reason and typically it is related to provenance. So hold off on your purchase, until you get a direct response. If you don't mind taking a chance at that price point, dive in and plan to open your bottle in the not too distant future. I may be conservative in my view of this bottle, but if it was me, I'd probably open this one within the first year of purchase. IF the retailer says "no" just some minor discoloration due to leak or seepage from another bottle etc., then you can make a more informed decision and hopefully this bottle will reward you and show beautifully.

[Andy Velebil]

Others have already gave sound advice, so I'll just add a little and also a counterpoint.

I too would ask questions of the retailer regarding the backgroud (where stored, how many owners, how stored, etc).

The fill level sounds very good so does the outward picture. Although Roy mentioned he was a little concered about some discoloration of the Selo, to me that minor discoloration in your picture isn't a big deal. Take any thin piece of white paper and lay it over wax for 47 years and you're going to get some discoloration as the wax bleeds onto the paper. I don't see any outward signs in the picture of a prior leaky bottle. That added to the high fill level as described, wouldn't have me worried.

[Eric Menchen]

Now to your bottle. I am a bit concerned with the appearance at the bottom of the capsule and the discoloration (seepage? likely or worse, premox) of the Selo. ...

I guess I was fixated on the label, for which my recent 1966 had none, and overall condition of the bottle, but not the top. Yes, the selo does have discoloration. It is a concern. How much? The experts have spoken, and now you must judge for yourself.

[Eric S]

Eric, Andy, and Roy: Thanks for the feedback on the condition of the bottle. I suppose the color of the Selo does cause some concern, but this is offset to some degree given the high fill level of the bottle. Looking around a little more online, I have found a number of other '63 Dows for sale at this price point, so I suppose I'm a little less concerned than I was originally. Perhaps it would be helpful in my learning for others to post some images of their bottle tops from older vintages so I could see a greater number of examples. Living in PA (everything is controlled and sold by liquor stores owned and operated by the state gov't) limits my ability to closely inspect bottles in person.

My plan is to open the bottle between Christmas and New Year's with some friends, so its not intended as a long-term purchase (of course, this might be a moot point if UPS causes trouble for my shipment into PA). I'll post some follow up on this bottle in about 6 weeks. I also ordered a 77 Dow and a 97 Taylor, but plan on keeping those for a longer period of time.

As for starting (and intending to remain) small and/or slowly, its been my experience that the precursor to spending way too much money in a surprisingly short period of time is joining a specialized web forum like this... just like the forums for high end DIY audio and digital photography in which I regularly participate....