For The Love Of Port

Eric Ifune wrote: ↑Tue Mar 23, 2021 2:32 pm Glenn, I'd disagree with you on Ferreira not being top tier for Sogrape. Perhaps not as famous as Sandeman, it's history matches any house anywhere. I think it only gets overlooked because of it's elegant style, but ages nearly as well as anyone.

I agree. It has the same issue Warre's does, label bias. But when served blind next to other old VP's it stuns.

Frederick Blais wrote: ↑Wed Mar 24, 2021 1:17 am For me Niepoort and Noval are in the same boat. They have amazing old Ports, but both had a bad stretch during the 80's-90's but are coming back strong since 2000 for Niepoort and 1994 for Noval. We'll see in a few years where they belong again.

I don't think Niepoort is only a niche producer anymore. Since the release of Dialogo-Drink Me in the US I think- the company simply keeps getting more and more followers for table wines and for Ports. I'd say the name Niepoort is more notorious to the average consumer nowadays than Noval, but the fame of the Nacional amongs passionnates overshadows the quality and fame of Niepoort's best vintages.

Kopke is Tier 1 for Colheita, but not for Vintage.

I agree about Niepoort. There are three issues, at least here in the states, that are holding Niepoort back. And while it is more a dry wine issue it does also have a follow-on effect for his Ports;
- People are getting tired of hearing "this is the vintage of the century" every year for his VP releases.
- Martine's does not do a good job of importing, promoting and distributing.
- Dirk has WAY too many labels, often many are the same wines with a different name for different markets. Before the internet that wouldn't be a bad thing, as one in another country would never hear about the other, that is not the case now days. It is impossible to easily sort out which of his wines are the upper ones, the middle tier ones, or the lower ones from his marketing. It is incredibly confusing for even me to follow, let alone the average consumer. This leads to people just walking away from the brand as it's too hard to follow the erratic amounts of different wines and marketing.

Will W. wrote: ↑Mon Mar 22, 2021 11:30 am In terms of producers which have been bottling VPs for ages and are still at it: Burmester and Ramos Pinto.

I've only had one Burmester, the Ten Year. A friend brought it from out of state. I generally don't like Tens and I really liked it. I'd love to try other things by them.

The Burmester 20 yo is not bad either.

Andy Velebil wrote: ↑Sat Mar 27, 2021 7:24 am

Eric Ifune wrote: ↑Tue Mar 23, 2021 2:32 pm Glenn, I'd disagree with you on Ferreira not being top tier for Sogrape. Perhaps not as famous as Sandeman, it's history matches any house anywhere. I think it only gets overlooked because of it's elegant style, but ages nearly as well as anyone.

I agree. It has the same issue Warre's does, label bias. But when served blind next to other old VP's it stuns.

I've come to LOVE Ferreira. I was able to get a lot of it cheap recently (mostly 85s and 94s) and am ecstatic having it in my cellar. Just excellent every time.

Andy Velebil wrote: ↑Sat Mar 27, 2021 7:37 am

I agree about Niepoort. There are three issues, at least here in the states, that are holding Niepoort back. And while it is more a dry wine issue it does also have a follow-on effect for his Ports;
- People are getting tired of hearing "this is the vintage of the century" every year for his VP releases.

That is very true!!!

John M. wrote: ↑Sun Mar 28, 2021 7:35 am I've come to LOVE Ferreira. I was able to get a lot of it cheap recently (mostly 85s and 94s) and am ecstatic having it in my cellar. Just excellent every time.

Another big fan here right here as well. Vintage or tawny; they are just great. Ferreira ports can really age despite their soft elegant style. If it wasn't for the wax; I may think a little differently on them. So many bottles where the wax is all that's holding the cork in place.

Who says only a brute can age a long time?

John M. wrote: ↑Sun Mar 28, 2021 7:35 am

Andy Velebil wrote: ↑Sat Mar 27, 2021 7:24 am

Eric Ifune wrote: ↑Tue Mar 23, 2021 2:32 pm Glenn, I'd disagree with you on Ferreira not being top tier for Sogrape. Perhaps not as famous as Sandeman, it's history matches any house anywhere. I think it only gets overlooked because of it's elegant style, but ages nearly as well as anyone.

I agree. It has the same issue Warre's does, label bias. But when served blind next to other old VP's it stuns.

I've come to LOVE Ferreira. I was able to get a lot of it cheap recently (mostly 85s and 94s) and am ecstatic having it in my cellar. Just excellent every time.

I love Ferreira also. But I consider it a 2nd Tier brand/label because it simply doesn't have the name recognition and product support to be considered 1st Tier, at least not to me.

From a quality-only perspective, sure, maybe. Like I said before, if we're only talking about the quality of the Port then there are a whole lot of small producers who should be considered. But to me name recognition has to be part of the equation, and not just amongst us geeks.

I base myself only on vintage ports for this evaluation.
Then these two producers must (in my mind) be included in Tier 2, although they have "only" 15-20 years of history with their present labels.

Quinta do Vale Meao (first vintage with their own set-up was 2000)

Pintas (Wine & Soul) (first vintage 2003)

Rune EG wrote: ↑Wed Mar 31, 2021 4:51 am I base myself only on vintage ports for this evaluation.
Then these two producers must (in my mind) be included in Tier 2, although they have "only" 15-20 years of history with their present labels.

Quinta do Vale Meao (first vintage with their own set-up was 2000)

Pintas (Wine & Soul) (first vintage 2003)

Couldn't agree more Rune!! For Pintas I even would consider Tier 1

I have yet to try a Pintas. They seem hard to come by in my neck of the woods. I might have a 2017 that I won at auction, I have to check.

Mike J. W. wrote: ↑Wed Mar 31, 2021 7:12 am I have yet to try a Pintas. They seem hard to come by in my neck of the woods. I might have a 2017 that I won at auction, I have to check.

That's no surprise, because their production is very limited: 2000 bottles for their 2018VP and 4000 bottles for their 2017! Both are great ports (and so are 2016 and 2015 )

As much as I love some of the Pintas and Vale Meo, I want to see how they prove on the long run before putting them in tier 1. Both have made amazing and easy going VP. T1 needs more consistency in my opinion. We'll also see how it holds up in a few years. W&S 2017 VP is in my top 3 by the way.

In my mind, when I think of 2nd Tier, I think of the tiers kind of like the Bordeaux classification of 1855; which is to say that their are five tiers, and the first tier only has five labels in it. Like Rune, I'm also tending to think of just VP. Second labels and other categories like colheita don't apply, just as Les Pagodes de Cos isn't in the five tiers (of Cos d'Estournel, 2nd tier for their namesake wine), and Sauternes gets a separate classification.

So Tier 1 is Taylor, Fonseca, Graham, Dow, and then Noval, but if you want Warres instead, we can debate over a few glasses.
Tier 2 gets maybe 10 or 12 names, and a lot of those being bandied about here don't make it, in my mind. Hey, we've got to fill tiers 3-5 too!

So this is what we have become--instead of which 2nd Tier is your fav, it has become a debate of classification in the first place. Everyone has their own opinion which means it is unresolvable unless the originator of this thread would define 1st tier as they see it.

Port brands are like family members--there are some that are near and dear you want to see a lot of and never tire of. Some you see just at Christmas, Easter, weddings and funerals and are fine with that--just enough. Some you see once in a great while (like Souza and are pleasantly surprised--that buying op was like finding a long lost cousin you didn't know you had). And some you hope don't show up at your daughters wedding and embarrass themselves--yet you love them just the same and HOPE you will find some enjoyment if they do come.

Fortunately for me, not too many in the latter category. I struggle with Churchill and Infantado.

John M. wrote:So this is what we have become--instead of which 2nd Tier is your fav, it has become a debate of classification in the first place. Everyone has their own opinion which means it is unresolvable unless the originator of this thread would define 1st tier as they see it.

Port brands are like family members--there are some that are near and dear you want to see a lot of and never tire of. Some you see just at Christmas, Easter, weddings and funerals and are fine with that--just enough. Some you see once in a great while (like Souza and are pleasantly surprised--that buying op was like finding a long lost cousin you didn't know you had). And some you hope don't show up at your daughters wedding and embarrass themselves--yet you love them just the same and HOPE you will find some enjoyment if they do come.

Fortunately for me, not too many in the latter category. I struggle with Churchill and Infantado.

It is why I think the Bordeaux classifications are silly. How do you determine who makes what tier? And what happens when a producers has a bad stretch, like early 80’s with Taylors/Fonseca? Do you downgrade them? And how does one get upgraded?

Andy Velebil wrote: ↑Fri Apr 02, 2021 7:53 am It is why I think the Bordeaux classifications are silly. How do you determine who makes what tier? And what happens when a producers has a bad stretch, like early 80’s with Taylors/Fonseca? Do you downgrade them? And how does one get upgraded?

IMHO, the silliest part of it is that after more than 150 years people still give it an incredible amount of importance. Are those still the best wines in Bordeaux? LIkewise there is silliness in trying to classify the Port houses into tiers as well. But even if there isn't a formal classification for the labels (in the Douro of course there is an incredibly complex system for the vineyards), we debate this, and you can see it in the pricing. Is that $60 or $80 2011 VP really better than the ones I picked up for $35, or is it the label bias? I can tell you, that $35 one I am thinking of was awesome when I tasted it.

My original post said Vintage Port, so all other types of Port are immediately off the table in this discussion. I'm pretty close to what Thomas and Eric laid out as their Tier 1 Vintage Ports. For me, the first tier is: Taylor, Fonseca, Graham, Dow, Noval and Warres. I could easily throw in Quinta do Vesuvio as well even though they've mainly only been around since '89 IIRC.

Yes there are probably multiple tiers after that, so let's make it easier. After those 7 Ports listed above, what's your favorite VP? And then the follow on question to that is, what is a Port that most might not consider even a Tier 2 VP that you like a lot? So my answer to the first question would be Gould Campbell and my answer to the second question is Offley Boa Vista. Have at it folks.

Eric I.
I agree with your thought that Ferreira ages as well as the best Port shipper!


As to the original question:
For me, my favorite 2nd tier producer of Port would be Gould Campbell and I was very sad to see that go away this decade. Some many remarkable QPR Vintage Ports. Have you seen any other Ports under the GC name besides vintage?

Roy Hersh wrote: ↑Fri Apr 09, 2021 2:22 pm Have you seen any other Ports under the GC name besides vintage?

I have had a 2008 Gould Campbell LBV. They also did a 2000 LBV.