Page 1 of 1

Crisis in the Douro?

Posted: Tue Sep 24, 2024 7:24 am
by Andy Velebil

Re: Crisis in the Douro?

Posted: Tue Sep 24, 2024 8:43 am
by Glenn E.
As global Port sales have dropped (down 13% by volume between 2021 and 2023), the beneficio – the amount of must that can legally be used to make Port – has declined by more than 22%, from 116,000 pipes (550-litre barrels) in 2022 to only 90,000 pipes this year. That is the lowest figure since 1993.
Uh... what about 2011 when it was 85,000 liters?

Re: Crisis in the Douro?

Posted: Tue Sep 24, 2024 11:49 am
by Andy Velebil
Glenn E. wrote:
As global Port sales have dropped (down 13% by volume between 2021 and 2023), the beneficio – the amount of must that can legally be used to make Port – has declined by more than 22%, from 116,000 pipes (550-litre barrels) in 2022 to only 90,000 pipes this year. That is the lowest figure since 1993.
Uh... what about 2011 when it was 85,000 liters?
They were close, go easy. Hah!

Re: Crisis in the Douro?

Posted: Tue Sep 24, 2024 3:12 pm
by Eric Menchen
Andy Velebil wrote: Tue Sep 24, 2024 11:49 am
Glenn E. wrote:
As global Port sales have dropped (down 13% by volume between 2021 and 2023), the beneficio – the amount of must that can
Uh... what about 2011 when it was 85,000 liters?
They were close, go easy. Hah!
From the few times I've been involved in something that was then reported in the media, I can say that the details are rarely conveyed with 100% accuracy.

Re: Crisis in the Douro?

Posted: Tue Sep 24, 2024 3:16 pm
by Glenn E.
Eric Menchen wrote: Tue Sep 24, 2024 3:12 pm
Andy Velebil wrote: Tue Sep 24, 2024 11:49 am
Glenn E. wrote: They were close, go easy. Hah!
From the few times I've been involved in something that was then reported in the media, I can say that the details are rarely conveyed with 100% accuracy.
Fake news!

Re: Crisis in the Douro?

Posted: Tue Sep 24, 2024 3:17 pm
by Andy Velebil
Eric Menchen wrote:
Andy Velebil wrote: Tue Sep 24, 2024 11:49 am
Glenn E. wrote: They were close, go easy. Hah!
From the few times I've been involved in something that was then reported in the media, I can say that the details are rarely conveyed with 100% accuracy.
As someone who used to interact regularly with the media, even when given in writing they rarely convey it accurately.

Re: Crisis in the Douro?

Posted: Tue Sep 24, 2024 3:42 pm
by Glenn E.
Andy Velebil wrote: Tue Sep 24, 2024 3:17 pm
Eric Menchen wrote:
Andy Velebil wrote: Tue Sep 24, 2024 11:49 am
From the few times I've been involved in something that was then reported in the media, I can say that the details are rarely conveyed with 100% accuracy.
As someone who used to interact regularly with the media, even when given in writing they rarely convey it accurately.
Oh, that's not restricted to media. I can't count the number of professional contacts that I have, who have never seen my name except in an email from me, who then reply with, "Dear Glen" or "Dear Mr. Elliot".

Doesn't inspire confidence in me regarding their attention to detail, that's for sure!

Re: Crisis in the Douro?

Posted: Tue Sep 24, 2024 3:51 pm
by Mike J. W.
I would have liked to have seen a few other opinions expressed in the article as well as to outline some of the solutions that have been proposed to address the problem. The article should have been more in-depth.

Re: Crisis in the Douro?

Posted: Tue Sep 24, 2024 3:52 pm
by Andy Velebil
Mike J. W. wrote:I would have liked to have seen a few other opinions expressed in the article as well as to outline some of the solutions that have been proposed to address the problem. The article should have been more in-depth.
Agree!

Re: Crisis in the Douro?

Posted: Tue Sep 24, 2024 9:44 pm
by Eric Menchen
Mike J. W. wrote: Tue Sep 24, 2024 3:51 pm I would have liked to have seen a few other opinions expressed in the article ...
Well, not the article, but I'll give you mine:
  • A new/revitalized Casa do Douro is not the solution
  • Requiring aguardente to come from Portuguese grapes is silly. Quality is important, but the source is not critical for that.
  • Eliminate the beneficio. If you want some way to cushion the blow of that, maybe.
I really think that that Portuguese wines, Douro in particular for this conversation, but all in general, need to be better promoted on the world stage to get a more appropriate price in the market. But with the world awash in wine and overall wine consumption going down, that's not an easy sell.

Re: Crisis in the Douro?

Posted: Wed Sep 25, 2024 7:08 am
by Andy Velebil
Arguadente used to be produced in the Douro. Quality wasn’t so great, from what I was told, and it was pricey. Not sure going back would be a good thing.

One doesn’t necessarily need top end expensive brandy for inexpensive ports to be consumed young.

Other issue is, getting workers to live in the Douro and work there. Can’t get workers as it is, even for restaurants and hotels. What makes them think they’ll get them for a brandy factory.

Re: Crisis in the Douro?

Posted: Sat Sep 28, 2024 5:32 pm
by Lucas S
This is an age old problem with an age old solution. Farmers the world over want predictability, as much as they can get.

What they need to do is replace the Beneficio with a Douro grapes futures market based in the valley itself, let's say in Pinhão.

Risk-averse growers will lock in modest prices they need to survive ahead of time, and those able to take more risk may choose to gamble on a smaller harvest (fetching higher prices). Meanwhile, the Port and Douro DOC producers have freedom to produce to the demand they expect and do so, also, with predictable pricing of supply. If prices fell too low in a huge harvest, exporters could come in and bid up the floor of the market.

Re: Crisis in the Douro?

Posted: Tue Oct 01, 2024 5:01 am
by Frederick Blais
The Portuguese government said recently it will put 100millions Euros available as credit for those in need.

Portugal is simply catching up with the reality... The old people who used to consume shitty Port at low prices are not being replaced with the new generation who prefers to drink less and better(or shitty natural wines at high price). For the last 20 years in France, the country has been giving money to vitners to change their plantation or to convert their land for other projects.

Here in the Douro, a few big producers control so much that even if the Beneficio is removed, they can still have a major impact on keeping prices low, especially if the offer is greater than the demand.

There needs to be a larger culture or farming quality in the Douro which is sadly the only thing that the Benificio does not encourage. But anyway, in a few years, if things continue this way, there won't be enough hands to harvest grapes in the Douro and the offer and demand might find dynamics that will drive the price higher.... money talks, always.

Re: Crisis in the Douro?

Posted: Tue Oct 01, 2024 5:29 am
by Moses Botbol
What would happen if it were a true free market in the Douro with no pricing or selling constraints?

Re: Crisis in the Douro?

Posted: Tue Oct 01, 2024 7:09 pm
by Andy Velebil
Moses Botbol wrote: Tue Oct 01, 2024 5:29 am What would happen if it were a true free market in the Douro with no pricing or selling constraints?
Chaos? Well, probably at first anyways.

I'd guess that many small older farmers would just hang up their hat and stop. Especially the ones with lower quality fruit, that are still getting paid a moderate amount for them due to the beneficio and their vineyard letter grade.

But that brings up the topic not often discussed, vineyard grading. Many larger producers don't want that to change. Same for many smaller ones too. Remember, it largely hasn't changed since its inception. But viticulture and climate has changed. The previous has changed immensely in the past 40+ years. Just look at block planting and what vinification changes, to mention just two, have taken place. Not to mention electricity. One example, Quinta de Vargellas, didn't get electricity until the later part of the 1970's. Think of what changes that allowed in the vineyard and the winery. Climate change is quickly altering what aspect you want vines to face and at what altitude to plant them. So why hasn't the grading system changed? 50 years ago Quinta "X" was graded an "A". Now a half century later, it may not be the best place to grow top end Port grapes anymore. Yet it still retains it's "A" letter grade and thus top dollar for fruit.

Change in the Douro is not a simple affair. Whatever is done will cause significant hardship to many larger and smaller producers. But most people agree something needs to change, sooner rather than later. I think at this point the bigger question is, does the region pull the band-aid off slowly or does it just rip it off in one go? I would love to hear what others think on this topic?

Re: Crisis in the Douro?

Posted: Wed Oct 02, 2024 5:57 am
by Frederick Blais
I also wanted to write about the grading Andy. I'm in a hurry but quickly.

Those letter for Port production are from A to F. But they are graded for the production of VP... so removing the Beneficio or changing it could see a positive change for those in search of high quality Tawnies and Whites.

Let's not forget, the Beneficio is way more than a quota for a region. It turns down to be a quota per producer. For example, the amount of possible pipas per year will be divided among the 15k(more or less) growers. Each of those will receive a paper stating the number of pipas they can produce from their vineyard. If you sell your grapes, you also sell give this paper to the buyer. Here is the catch, who will validate that those grapes will end up being brought to the destination buyer. No one!

Good grapes will always find a buyer for a higher price than the floor one. Mostly, those grapes are secured with long term commitement. Then those who will be greatly affected are those who are simply selling the paper for its value, because for some producers, it is better to simply use more of their own grapes by buying more Beneficio.

On the short term, better grapes and vineyards will keep getting the same price, but too many vitners will be there to sell grapes without any value, this will greatly affect the economy of the region. Eventually, those who get up from this crisis will bring new ideas/quality to the table. What does not kill you makes you stronger.

And on the same note... why is there 13% of Morisco planted in Douro Superior. This is a grape that is almost like table grape. Its yield are high, skin very light... perfect to make a young Tawny look old. Good or bad idea? Something to think for the future?