US Buying Cooperative

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Fri Dec 08, 2006 1:23 pm

New thread based on comments about this topic in several other threads.

I've been wracking my brain to figure out how we could set up some kind of buying cooperative here in the states that would all us to be able to collectively take advantage of some of those good deals you guys are getting in the UK.

Unfortunately, we have the really arcane three-tier system here in the states that makes it more problematic...

I'm interested in hearing any ideas anyone has about how we could set something up?

Derek T. · Post by **Derek T.** » Fri Dec 08, 2006 3:58 pm

You could all club together to buy a boat and set sail for one of the islands off the west coast of Scotland. Alex, Tom and I will meet you there in the dead of night and load up all those cases for you to take home - in exchange, you can give us a few thousand gallons of petrol (gasoline) which cost us 4 times as much here as it does in the US - everybody wins 8)

Derek

David Gutglass · Post by **David Gutglass** » Fri Dec 08, 2006 5:21 pm

Any resources out there so that I don't pay 200 GBP per case for shipping?
This is a major roadblock for those of us that want to purchase from the UK.

Derek T. · Post by **Derek T.** » Fri Dec 08, 2006 5:29 pm

dgutglass,

Welcome to FTLOP - can you please go back to your profile and give us your real name - it is best if we all know who we are talking to as it keeps the forum friendly.

£200 per case sounds a bit too much. Others have suggested on this site that £40-50 is possible, which is acceptable on a good value case of VP.

A few of the other US Forumites seem to be gathering a head of steam towards setting up some sort of buying co-operative to minimise shipping costs. Stick around here and see what happens.

Derek

David Gutglass · Post by **David Gutglass** » Fri Dec 08, 2006 5:51 pm

Derek

Thanks for your response, yes I was trying to buy a case of Graham's crusted port at Justerini and Brooks (their house crusted). I bought a six pack while in London last year for around $35/bottle. Now I am being quoted 200 GBP for shipping/cs!!

David

Post by **Roy Hersh** » Sat Dec 09, 2006 2:11 am

Hi David and welcome to our site. I hope you have a good time here and assume that by now you are either already signed up to receive the newsletter (the next one is a doozie!) or will do so shortly.

I have not tried shipping wine to the US for some time, but regular FTLOP poster David Spriggs does it with some frequency. I believe that the price I've heard recently for shipping a case to the USA, is $125-175 USD.

As to organizing a US-based Port consortium, I love the idea. But as a SERIOUS student of our archaic and prohibionist interstate shipping laws, I know the pitfalls and this is no easy task. It CAN be done and I am even willing to take this on in 2007, but right now ... I have a newsletter to finish, while Stewart and I also will be launching the new newsletter interface and a new website. So although I love Stewart's enthusiasm, we won't bite off more than we can chew ... at this time.

That said, I am very open minded to listen to all suggestions on sourcing at the best price, order fulfillment ... keeping in mind the 3-tiers AND interstate laws AND tax regulations which differ in each State too. Ok, now I will shut up and listen.

Roy ----> :beat:

Moses Botbol · Post by **Moses Botbol** » Sat Dec 09, 2006 7:07 am

I love the idea too. Maybe there's a liqour wholesaler/importer someone knows that will give us super low or virtually no mark up on the stuff we order directly ourselves and he just receives?

Jay Powers · Post by **Jay Powers** » Sun Dec 10, 2006 12:42 am

I love the idea and would like to participate. David seems like a good resource for thinking about it, and if Roy is willing to take a hand that much the better. I would like to be a "member" of the consortium. I do not know anything about shipping/taxs/threee teir systems, but I would be willing to do anything within reason to make something like this happen.

I'm dreaming of my Grahams 66 and Niepoort 97 purchases already

*sweetstuff · Post by *sweetstuff » Sun Dec 10, 2006 3:54 pm

Roy Hersh wrote:Hi David and welcome to our site. I hope you have a good time here and assume that by now you are either already signed up to receive the newsletter (the next one is a doozie!) or will do so shortly.

I have not tried shipping wine to the US for some time, but regular FTLOP poster David Spriggs does it with some frequency. I believe that the price I've heard recently for shipping a case to the USA, is $125-175 USD.

As to organizing a US-based Port consortium, I love the idea. But as a SERIOUS student of our archaic and prohibionist interstate shipping laws, I know the pitfalls and this is no easy task. It CAN be done and I am even willing to take this on in 2007, but right now ... I have a newsletter to finish, while Stewart and I also will be launching the new newsletter interface and a new website. So although I love Stewart's enthusiasm, we won't bite off more than we can chew ... at this time.

That said, I am very open minded to listen to all suggestions on sourcing at the best price, order fulfillment ... keeping in mind the 3-tiers AND interstate laws AND tax regulations which differ in each State too. Ok, now I will shut up and listen.

Roy ---->

Roy,

Have you noticed that a group of Burgundy junkies on Squires are working on their second group of in-cask purchases at the Hospices auction? With some cooperation from a good shipper/bottler, such as they've found, they take ownership of the wine in France, I believe, and avoid some pitfalls that way. Would it be worth getting in contact with the organizers of that group to find out how they've done it? Probably not immediately, though, because they've just made several more purchases.

It's amazing how they pulled this off--I scoffed in disbelief when I heard what they were going to try to do. From an economic standpoint what they're doing is trading their labor (in all the hassles that must be borne) as the cost of getting less expensive wine. If you're not VERY TIGHTLY organized, I can see just the followup with folks that have ordered but are not sure exactly when they'll get around to paying, and like stuff, and even potential lawsuits from members of the group, might be part of the cost, too.

HOWEVER: One thing that you might be able to get that might be worth it all, even if the savings are not great and the headaches extreme, is the opportunity to import some great stuff that wouldn't otherwise make it over here. Roy probably has those kinds of connections in the port (and even the Douro table wine, don't forget that) industry, as do some other members of this group. That might be the real reason you want to go ahead with this.

David Gutglass · Post by **David Gutglass** » Mon Dec 11, 2006 11:43 am

John:

I think this a great idea and would be happy to help in any way that I can. A lot of us in the states are very hungry for the more elusive ports that we can't find here or can only find at auction at very high prices.

David

SEAN C. · Post by **SEAN C.** » Mon Dec 11, 2006 10:26 pm

I would be VERY interested in joining in any type of "Port buying Cooperative" as I would love to try some lesser know Ports here in the US. It's bad enough with the dollar vs pound and the shipping anywhere from f £120(air) or £60 (by sea) per case from the UK. Count me IN!

Post by **Andy Velebil** » Mon Dec 11, 2006 10:29 pm

Count me in too

Post by **Roy Hersh** » Wed Dec 13, 2006 5:11 pm

The buying cooperative idea is not dead, it just smells funny.

I am happy to look into this further, in 2007 but what we are considering here, is NOTHING like what the guys have done in Burgundy. Buying one specific release in cask/bottle form, is nowhere near the same amount of work as an ongoing "consortium" to import and distribute multiple vintage from a wide variety of producers.

I understand the challenges and they'd be enormous ... however, I have leaped over greater hurdles than this in the past. Glad to see there is plenty of interest. The infrastructure and capital needed to set this all up would be the initial challenge: as I don't think people realize what is really involved: import licenses, storage facilities, shipping capabilities, order fulfillment coordination etc.

It is a wonderful idea though.

SEAN C. · Post by **SEAN C.** » Wed Dec 13, 2006 9:30 pm

Roy Hersh wrote:The buying cooperative idea is not dead, it just smells funny.

I am happy to look into this further, in 2007 but what we are considering here, is NOTHING like what the guys have done in Burgundy. Buying one specific release in cask/bottle form, is nowhere near the same amount of work as an ongoing "consortium" to import and distribute multiple vintage from a wide variety of producers.

I understand the challenges and they'd be enormous ... however, I have leaped over greater hurdles than this in the past. Glad to see there is plenty of interest. The infrastructure and capital needed to set this all up would be the initial challenge: as I don't think people realize what is really involved: import licenses, storage facilities, shipping capabilities, order fulfillment coordination etc.

It is a wonderful idea though.

Any idea as to which state would be best to set something like this up in?
Would somewhere on the East coast best for shipping?

Post by **Roy Hersh** » Wed Dec 13, 2006 11:41 pm

No, actually CA is better for a number of reasons, including lower taxes, easier Ports (the shipping kind) to deal with, 40 million potential customers and many Forum members there, not to mention the fact that they already have the ability to ship to anyhwhere in the USA where it is legal to do so.
Do you think it is a coincidence that the vast majority of wine retailers that American wine geeks buy from are based in CA? For example, the owner of RWC lives on the Atlantic Coast but has his company based in CA ... and that is just one basic example.

I have had the wine business baptism by fire. I imported wine that I blended overseas and brought into the USA. My very first order was for 10 ea. x 20' containers and had to work the logisitics of moving it from the ship to the truck to the warehouse at the distributors and then to the customer in two other states. I know this sounds really simple but you have little idea of the logistical challenges that a small deal like that can entail.

It was much easier to buy a few million dollars a year in wine for a chain of restaurants. Actually, that was a lot of fun. But getting the allocations, pricing engineered and direct imports all lined up properly was "work" too, although a very small piece of what I was doing for a living at the time.

Simply put, months of hard work from legal issues to flow and order fulfillment would be required long before anyone could begin to consider which specific wines would even be brought in. It is important that I/you/we don't tackle something without even understanding the vast number of challenges in doing so.

David Spriggs · Post by **David Spriggs** » Wed Dec 20, 2006 11:18 pm

Roy Hersh wrote:I have not tried shipping wine to the US for some time, but regular FTLOP poster David Spriggs does it with some frequency.

I have imported wines from the UK several times. All of the lots I have imported are on the large size for an individual (10+ cases). Prices currently run $100-130/case. The big advantage is that you pay no VAT or Duty in the UK if you are buying the cases out of bond and exporting them. I have been mostly been buying cases out of bond from Farr Vintners and can highly recommend them. I wish I had the time to put together something like this buying cooperative. The importation to California is easy, if a bit expensive. However, the shipping from California is a nightmare for an individual with no liquor license... and of course, the various state laws make shipping almost impossible for non-reciprical states, even for those who are properly licensed. The shipping can be surmounted, but you'd really have to open a real wine business and be licensed. That's a lot of work.

-Dave-

John Conwell · Post by **John Conwell** » Thu Dec 21, 2006 1:14 pm

THis sounds like an interesting idea. It also sounds like something that would take a lot of man hours, complete dedication, and a fair amount of capital to pull off.

The amount of work and dedication to successfully put to gether this type of venture smells more like an investment than a hobby. People have a tendency to drop hobbies when it gets difficult. But investments hold people's interest because they have a financial stake in the success.

Are the people who are interested in this looking to just gain access to ports not normally available to the US for just themselves, or are they wanting to create a customer base and sell these ports.

Moses Botbol · Post by **Moses Botbol** » Thu Dec 21, 2006 1:21 pm

jconwell wrote: Are the people who are interested in this looking to just gain access to ports not normally available to the US for just themselves, or are they wanting to create a customer base and sell these ports.

I am looking for ports that I may not find at the local B&M and ports that I can buy locally for much less expense. Never really thought about selling them, but that could be a consideration depending on the amount of investment required to get it started.

*sweetstuff · Post by *sweetstuff » Sat Dec 30, 2006 10:46 am

Roy, the problem of attacking multiple bottlins, shippers, etc. would be simpified if we could agree on a single producer, whose products can be somewhat tough to get or are highly marked-up, and who makes several different styles, all in very high-quality. A good example would be Niepoort, but other shippers come to mind. The Symington group would provide a lot of flexibility, but they are also the easiest to get because of their integration of distribution.

I'd like to see a house that makes great vp, great colhieta, great lbv, great age-dated tawnies. Some one other can chip in here too.

There are even some houses that ship both madiera and port, or even madieral, port, and sherry, but don't know at what quality level.

Tom Archer · Post by **Tom Archer** » Mon Jan 01, 2007 12:04 pm

After watching this thread for a while, some thoughts:

1) In many respects, the plentiful supply of land is a huge advantage for the US, but it mitigates against the distribution of small volume specialised items.

2) Economies of scale when shipping to the US only really cut in when 20ft containers are consigned - that's around 800 cases of wine, which is much more than contributors to this thread seem to be contemplating.

3) There seems to be little advantage gained from shipping from the Uk to a US hub and then re-despatching from there, as opposed to direct small shipments from the UK to the end consumer in the US - provided that the import paperwork is not too time-consuming...

4) That said, it is probably not economic to ship quantites of less than a dozen bottles directly.

5) There is probably scope for a business that ships mixed dozens of fine wines direct from the Uk to consumers in the US, realising a significant saving for the recipient and a worthwhile margin for the consignor, but the volumes need to reasonably high for it to be a worthwhile venture...

..twenty cases a year would be too much hassle, twenty cases a month would be a more serious proposition...

Tom

For The Love Of Port

US Buying Cooperative

US Buying Cooperative

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