Has anyone done a Port Wine and Glass tasting?

[John Conwell]

Last night I got the opportunity to do an amazing and educational wine and glass tasting.

The experiment was to taste 4 different wines (Pinot Gris, Chardonnay, Pinot Noir, and Cabernet), across 5 different Ridel glasses (Cabernet glass, Chardonnay glass, Pinot Noir glass, Riesling glass, and a bad restaurant wine glass) from both the Vinum Extreme and Sommelier series of Ridel glasses.

As you can immagine, thats a pretty big tasting matrix: 4 wines X 10 glasses. It was truly amazing how the different glasses changed the wine, and what was really interesting was the taste and smell differences between the Vinum Extreme and Sommelier glasses.

So I'm curious if anyone has done a similar tasting with VP? Covering a several VPs from different vintages, against multiple levels of port glasses?

[Andy Velebil]

No I have not...but sounds like a fun experiment and one that I will have to try sometime in the near future.

[Roy Hersh]

Nope, but I did a comparison of a number of Port glasses with the identical Port. The results are somewhere on this Forum.

[Todd Pettinger]

I think even that would be very telling: one wine, 5 or so glasses. Of course, you'd have to be diligent about doing it at a speed which would enable you to do a small sample across all X glasses fairly quickly - just so the results are not skewed by further develpment/air time for the last port tasted.

I'm going to take a look for that article and if I find it, post it here in the thread. That would be a very interesting read (one which Ihaven't yet found in the archives yet Roy - I'm a decent reader, but there's a LOT of content on this site and having only really been around for 3 months, too much for me to get through in that time.

Todd

[Derek T.]

My only experience of this was at the Port n Spa offline that Alex Bridgeman and I had last Nov (see old Newsletters for details).

Alex had some expensive Riedel port tasting glasses, the ones that are cut across the top rather than rounded off like normal glasses. I can't remember which wine we tried this with but we did experiment using that glass versus an identically shaped glass with a rounded top rim. There was a distinctive difference in the nose and taste of the wine. Better? who knows, but definately different.

Derek

[Scott Anaya]

Sounds very interesting. A good story helps sells things. And Riedel has some great stories to tell about their glasses!

I'm wondering if you have TN's or some general impressions of the glassware you tested to share with us?

I own one stem version of most of the major varietals of their Sommelier Series and of course, a set of Port ones.

This kind of brings up a topic, which I will maybe start as its own thread: the shitty glassware restaurants serve Port (along with any other wine) in!

[Derek T.]

Scott (I think, because your identity has disappeared :? )

Alex Bridgeman will have to fill you i on the details. Just so you know, we shared 6 bottles of port between 2 that night so the memory is rather hazy

Derek

[Scott Anaya]

Yup, its me , Scott......hmmmm, not sure where my identity went??? It looks to be all there in my profile.

[Derek T.]

Scott,

Don't walk into the light

Derek

[Roy Hersh]

Having spent nearly 25 years in the hotel/restaurant food and beverage industry, from Chef (my original schooling and where I spent my early years) up to various Director level positions for:
* Operations
* Food & Beverage
* Purchasing

... I can share the reason why some restaurants and hotels choose to buy wine glasses which we deem "shitty" or more politely, inadequate for our better wines.

But first, I think it unfair to make a blanket statement as I have dined at many places with exceptional, even "designer" hand blown stemware, albeit these are certainly in the minority of overall dining experiences.

That said, the real reasons that hotels and restaurants choose to have lower quality glassware are:

a. Durability - glasses from the dining room usually are brought into the kitchen to the staging area where glasses are then put into glass racks prior to going into automated dishwashing machines. Many glasses break even before going into the racks, others break in the racks from jostling and others still by careless employees, not to mention faults within the glassware itself.

b. Initial costs - when opening up a restaurant, the outlay of capital in the design process is unreal. There is a reason why the COGS is typically 33-45%+ in a fine dining establishment. So sometimes, by the time a new owner gets to choosing glassware, funds are running low. The initial cost of buying glassware for the bar and dining room (+ room service + banquet service ware and other food outlets, including guest rooms in a nice hotel) can be extraordinary. It is not like there are just wine glasses to buy in addition to the water glasses. Any good bar has 6-12 other styles of glasses, not to mention dessert wine glasses. The start up cost is a factor, but any smart operator realizes that the ...

c. Replacement costs - are where the real money is spent. In a typical restaurant, TOTAL glassware replacement costs can be on average 2x the initial outlay per year in a very busy establishment (higher when catering comes into play and lower if handwashing is done for very fine stemware). Nonetheless, you'd be amazed at how easy it is in a restaurant scenario to prevent fine stems from getting broken. I've worked in restaurants and hotels where we charted our broken glassware and china and lost silverware to keep track of our inventory on a monthly basis.

d. Perception - many GMs and owners don't think the extra expense for unique or high grade glassware is appreciated enough by customers or they feel that the food is what is most important and overlook this important "detail" and cheap out. I always felt that it was important to find the best level of durability and functionality at the best price. Frequently, the people I worked for, did not see things this way, even when presented with minimal annual outlays. I've even negotiated with a new supplier to come in and if they wanted our "total package" of glassware, they would have to come in and fully replace our complement of glasses at zero cost. This is done for upscale chains or high profile accounts when the buyers are savvy (and for china occasionally too).

So given these four basic dynamics that the consumer rarely takes into account when a crappy thick lipped Libbey wine glass is placed before them on the table before them and they are considering buying a $50 or 100+ bottle of wine with their dinner ... it can be very disconcerting. It still bugs me and I DO fully understand why it happens.

I hope this helps.

[Derek T.]

Roy,

To be honest, I have never given much thought to this other than "why have they given me a crappy glass" - now I know why

However (as always :? ), I would like to know what it is about expensive glasses that make them expensive, apart from style, which I don't care about.

Is a good shaped glass more expensive to produce than one that is not?

Derek

[Tom Archer]

I use the basic Riedel red wine glasses, which are reasonably affordable, and far superior to the thicker soda glass offerings beloved of restaurants.

I have tried to convince a couple of establishments to invest in these, but both thought the thin glass would succomb quickly to the rigours of the catering trade.

For my annual party, I now own a few dozen of these, which I deliver to the restaurant for the occasion.

To date, there have been no casualties..

Tom

[Ronald Wortel]

I've once done a comparison between different glasses on the same port. If I recall correctly the port was a Graham 1955 and we compared between a Riedel vintage port glass, Schott Zwiesel (diva series) and the IVDP glass. There were significant differences, especially on the nose, and it was good fun comparing. But from all three glasses the port tasted great. :)

[Alan C.]

I didn't have the Classic Port glasses until meeting Alex K and Derek, who were both nice enough to buy me and Debbie some from the Local Department Store. Thanks Guys

Confession time. I ended up, in all the drunken confusion, with 2 x Noval glasses. If anyone is missing them, or wants them back, spark up?

Alan

[Scott Anaya]

Roy,

Thanks much for your reply on the "why" restaurants use crappy glassware. I had always reckoned those to be the causes. I guess I would still like to make the blanket statement that some large percentage of restaurants serve wine in either crappy, or inappropriate, or virtually unusable (can't swirl, sniff, etc) stemware. And that only 'some' percentage of even top tier restaurants nail it on all accounts and provide above adequate AND appropriate stemware for all the wines they serve.

I would love to hear if all of you have been pleased with your stemware more than you have been disappointed even at top tier places

I have been in top restaurants that serve great wines in great crystal only to be handed a teeny tiny cordial thimble of a glass of VP that I can neither swirl or sniff.

In virtually every restaurant I dine, I almost always ask to see what kind of glass they use for Ports, so that I can head off the impending disappointment and at least request it be poured in a brandy snifter.

I try to tell myself I am not a snob since I 'm the type of person that also packs my Port glass into the wilds of Alaska, not matter the trip

[Andy Velebil]

I have been in top restaurants that serve great wines in great crystal only to be handed a teeny tiny cordial thimble of a glass of VP that I can neither swirl or sniff.

I've had this happen too, in a very expensive restaurant. I quitely slid away from the table and cornered the Sommelier (sp?) away from anyone else, and politely told him to get me a real glass that I could swirl the Port in. He was a bit clueless, and seemed to equate Port with a cordial liquor He did get me a small white wine glass that worked much better. I've been back to this restuarant several times over the past couple of years and the Som. always remembers to bring my glass of Port in a larger glass than those stupid little thimble glasses....I guess my little talk with him paid off Not sure if the other guests get a thimble glass, but at least I don't

[Al B.]

I must be a terrible wine snob. I often travel with my own Riedel port glass so that when I fancy a glass of port in a restaurant where there are some decent choices but the glasses are awful, I simply pass my glass to the wine waiter or barman and ask for him to use that. It usually raises a few eyebrows, but so far no-one has refused to do so.

While I have never carried out a comparative tasting using a variety of ports and a variety of glasses, Derek and I did compare the smell and flavour profiles of the same port out of a standard tasting glass and out of a Riedel vinum port glass. Axel Probst and I also recently had the chance to compare the IVDP glass against the Riedel glass. In both cases the glasses gave different smell profiles and tastes. It wasn't clear whether one was better than the other but they were different.

For me personally, I prefer the Riedel glass to any others that I have tried. I like the cut rim and the shape suits me.

I have also been to a tasting along the lines of the one that John described. Georg Riedel took a Masterclass at one of the early Decanter Wine Festivals in London where he had the full range of the Vinum glasses on display. Out of each glass we tried 2 different still white table wines and 3 different red table wines. It was that Masterclass that convinced me of the benefits of matching glass to wine and I have been careful to do so wherever I can since that day. I can go a bit over the top about it and people who pop round to our house still occasionally take the Mick out of me when we are sitting round the table and I change my glass shape before pouring a glass of wine. These occasions usually end up with me giving an impromptu demonstration of the difference and then offering new shape glasses to everyone - most people accept them. The latest demonstration was sitting on the deck in the back garden on Saturday with a bottle of cheap Aussie Chardonnay and the barbecue going. My other half poured out 3 glasses using "her" utility glasses - perfectly respectable cut rim goblets - and I insisted that she poured mine into a Riedel Vinum Chardonnay glass. Of course, that led to people wanting to know why, whether it made a difference, trying it out for themselves and perhaps a few more customers for Riedel when they experienced the difference it makes at first hand.

Alex

[Julian D. A. Wiseman]

I own many of the ISO 3591 tasting glasses (the 6" high version), which weren’t expensive (memory hazy: ~$100 for 36?), and work very well for port, Madeira, sherry, and whisky. At my father’s are a dozen of the Riedel port glasses, which one day will be tested against ISO 3591s. But for the moment I’m using the 3591s.

Alex: how do you transport your port glass?

[Andy Velebil]

Alex,
Dont feel bad, I do the same thing from time to time.

Julian,
I got a Reidel knock-off at the Wine Exchange for $30. Holds four glasses or 4 bottles, or any combo. Works great, and since its black and about the size of a briefcase, I rarely get second looks walking into a restaurant....that all changes when I unzip it and pull out glasses and bottles

[Todd Pettinger]

I got a Reidel knock-off ... Works great, and since its black and about the size of a briefcase, I rarely get second looks walking into a restaurant....

Sounds like I need one of these for my office!

Todd