LABEL BIAS and PORT WINE

[Roy Hersh]

Do you enjoy blind tasting and regardless of your answer, do you think that by seeing the label your pre-judgement and expectations affect your ability to fairly evaluate a Port?

[Al B.]

I really enjoy blind tasting whenever I get the chance and around half of the tastings that I take part in are arranged this way. I try hard not to be influenced by the reputation that a port has when I am tasting it, but I am sure that it does affect my notes and my scoring - either by a favourable reputation making me feel kind and scoring a port a few points more than it merits or even affecting me the other way and making me slightly too harsh as I try to compensate for the reputation a port brings with it.

However, most of the tastings that I go to are purely social events. Label bias is much less important at those tastings than is the company and the chat about the ports that are being drunk.

Alex

[Nikolaj Winther]

I enjoy blind tastings very much. Can be very "dramatic".

I'd say that knowing the name of the port can be a tricky thing. Sometimes I get sincerely disappointed - however, if I like it, it may get some more attention and perhaps praise. But I'm not "scared" to critizise a famous/expensive bottle if it doesn't deliver.

[Alan C.]

I've only had a handful of blind tastings, and they have been woeful and amusing in equal measures.
The desire for folk to be vaguely right makes one smile. The fact they are generally so far out, brings reality to the subject.

As long as I'm in the mood, and I'm enjoying good port, the pretentious 'Sauteed Squirrel Kidney, possibly the left one' Gang, make for a marvelous evenings entertainment.

Alan

[Derek T.]

making me slightly too harsh as I try to compensate for the reputation a port brings with it.

An interesting comment from Alex and a trait (though not from Alex) that I have witnessed many times in the tastings I have attended. I find it rather sad when this happens as, on a different night with different bottles for company, many VP's would be given a much better review than when up against a really tough line-up. Examples of this would be the Fonseca Vertical (1920 to 2000) and a 14 bottle 1966 Horizontal held in the UK in recent months. I do think that some of those wines suffered as a result of the company but on their own or with the superstars missing would have shined as very enjoyable and excellent examples of what VP is all about. Label Bias at its worst is when it is the label on another bottle that influences one's review of the wine being tasted.

Rant over.

Back on topic, I love blind tastings for precisely the reason that you are forced to declare your thoughts on the wine before knowing what it is. The guessing is always fun, even when Alan is in a bad mood

[Eric Ifune]

I enjoy tasting blind, and if the Port is good, don't even mind the humiliation after the unveiling.

[Frederick Blais]

I do like blind tasting. Both blind and non-blind tasting method have their good and flaws.

For exemple if I taste a Taylor 2000 blindly and I find it muted and not too good, I will rate it bad. But the same bottle tasted non-blind, I'd probably give it a better mark understanding that it is Taylor and that he is probably not in a good stage of his life.

I do think blind tasting is the best way to evaluate the quality of a wine regardless of his terroir or expectations. Though these components are vital to be able to put a sound judgement on the quality of a wine. To put an exemple : A good pinot noir from Burgundy will probably get a better mark in a blind tasting with other burgundy than with pinot noir from the world.

Anyway...I don't think there is a perfect system, both have their appropriate situations.

[Roy Hersh]

Would it amaze you ... if you knew that Robert Parker does not taste blind when he evaluates and writes about the wines he tastes?

I am not condemning him at all. It is his right to do what he wants.

Do you feel that you'd prefer professional wine reviewers to taste blind? Or not?

These questions are not meant to take away from the main thrust of the thread and I've enjoyed reading your excellent views so far (and hopefully we'll have many more!) but I thought this would add another layer to what can be a really fun topic.

[Andy Velebil]

Yes, I do enjoy blind tastings...to a certain extent.

When doing blind tastings I feel it is important to know a few basic things.
- Vintage (for younger wines only)
- How long its been decanted for
- region they are from (obviously not an issue with Port)

Those things become even more important if you are doing a "snap shot" tasting. That is, only one glass, then never coming back to it. Or only trying it over a very short time...say 1 hour or so.

As Fred pointed out, if someone gave me a snap shot tasting of a 2000 Taylors blind right now I'd probably say it wasn't that good. However, having it recently and knowing it's starting a shut down phase, that would have a hugh impact on my review.

So while blind tastings do have their place and are very fun and educational, they also can be counter-productive. They need to be done in the right context and with the right wines at the right time.


As for the question of label bias...

When I was first getting into wine and Ports I freely admit I had certain label biases. However, now I don't care who makes it, what vintage it is, etc. I've given good and bad scores to bottles irregardless of the label.

I recently tasted (non-blind) a very famous and expensive VP that I thought was decent but lack luster. However, it wasn't decanted for more than an hour or so. Knowing that I would have loved to spend more time with it to see how it evolved, or not. If I would have written a review of that wine based on that small snap shot tasting, it would have been unfair had I not know about it's decanting time and approximate vintage.

I don't care if Parker or anyone else tastes blind or not. To me, knowing the reputation of the reviewer and their being unbiased is the most important thing.

[Mike McCune]

I would prefer the professional critics taste the wines blind. But in the case of port, it would be appropriate to taste (and report on) the wines over a multiple day period (until they started to go downhill or oxidize).

In a 2003 tasting a couple of years ago, I ended up contacting one of their representatives about the fact that AFTER TAKING the 6 bags off, the most offensive wine for me on the nose was Fonseca 2003. I wondered if it was VA (given my nose's reaction) but it wasn't, just unintegrated spirit. It's funny how polarizing this young VP is but I consistently see comments about how obviously spirity it is to some but not others at the same tastings. So, I immediately pulled out a 375 2003 Fonseca from storage and opened it up. Undecanted (indirect decanting over the week), but tasted every day for a week, after 7 days it finally became deliciously 'noseable'. Prior to that I found it almost impossible to 'nose' the glass.

So, blind tasted over a long period (as long as required), and fully reported on over the tasting period would be my preference for professional notes on port.

There was a recent posting on erobertparker.com recently about a 2003 GJE tasting where the 2003 Fonseca spirity nose factor was quite obvious to me, again separating those sensitive to 'young unintegrated' spirit and those who were not sensitive.

The 2003 VPs make the point for long evaluation times. Where they do not get airation, Taylor and Fonseca do not show as well and other lesser known ports rise to the top. Not that Taylor and Fonseca belong 1 and 2, but others needing airtime don't make it into the top wines either (like they will later with proper decanting).

[Todd Pettinger]

A couple of rambling thoughts:

1. I'd like to see all pro notes done blind, or at least with the criteria Andy has specified above as being the only information they are given. As both Andy, Fred, and others note, the date of the Vintage will play a significant role in Vintage Port (i.e. how closed it may be due to a young age, whether the Port has had enough decanter time, etc.)

2. I'd like to do more of my own samplings blind, however I have yet to hook up with a really good group where we can multiple Ports tried in a single sitting and have the chance to do it blind.

I ignore scores from almost all wine-scoring professionals, the exception being Roy. I can't tell you how many 90+ point Wine Advocate wines are in my local wine stores. And are they all worth the scores they have acquired? Doubtful. Knowing the labels does a lot of the same... taints the score through association perhaps... I know my own perceptions of a Port will change if I know the label and it is supposed to be a good one.

I often do not consider my palate very good and it is through lack of proper experience and having tried fewer 'old' vintages than I would like. For this reason, I rarely grade Ports publicly, simply because what I like may not be what others like. What Parker or Hersh rate as a 95 may, to me, be an 87 and vice versa. That is why my scores are typically marked as "take this with a grain of salt... it is simply my opinion."

Then again, Hersh and Parker have THEIR own opinions and if you figure out who's scores typically jive with what YOU score a Port (or wine) then I suppose the grade scale makes for an easy way to identify what you may want to acquire and try for yourself... to see if you do align in score.

As always, just this guy's

Todd

[Otto Nieminen]

I love blind tastings. I have my own ideas about how I like Ports (gained through both open and blind tastings as well as through drinking bottles over several days in the unhurried environment of my home) and I like challenging all these preconcieved notions.

But I also understand that one might want to taste open so as to take advantage of the setting of the port and how it relates to all others. So I think that the way we usually taste in my tastings is a good compromise: we have big enough pours that we can go through them blind, and once more when revealed.

-O

[Richard Henderson]

As you know , Roy I belong to a blind tasting group that meets regularly and it is double blind. No one knows what the wine is at all. It is challenging and humbling and can really expose some prejudices. One also starts to really think about what it is and to see if there is a palate memory deep inside the brain.

[Andy Velebil]

One also starts to really think about what it is and to see if there is a palate memory deep inside the brain.

Richard,

That is what I love of blind tastings. I like to challenge myself to see if I can recall a specific taste profile from other bottles I've had. Then based on that, guessing what bottle I am drinking blind.

Your right, it can be quite humbling at times, but in an educational way, and very satisfying when guessed correctly (or very close, like the producer).

[Todd Pettinger]

In my mind, the whole point o having blind tastings would be to determine, without label bias and without price bias, what I like and do not like.

I wish more reviews were done like this... it really would be interesting to see what some players like Fonseca and Taylor would rate if served blind.

I guess I don't have enough experience to start challenging myself to see what nuances I can pick up and/or remember from other Ports, particularly VP, so I would likely end up with a very poor result in a guessing game.

[Richard Henderson]

Two weeks ago I tasted our "dessert wine " at our regular group lunch double blind . I of course i.d.'ed it as VP. I swirled looked at the color and guessed it was 1985 but I thought , proabably Graham's . It was 85 Taylor. I think that is pretty close.

[Roy Hersh]

Yep, a very good guess. I find it tons easier to come close on vintage than I do in guessing the producer. I've never been good at that, nor do I think it makes for a better or worse palate.

[Roy Hersh]

Is anybody here particularly good at guessing producer when blind tasting?

I have seen it done with table wines by several individuals who get a fairly high percantage, 15-20%. Is anybody in that range or close with Tawny or Vintage Port?

[Glenn E.]

I have seen it done with table wines by several individuals who get a fairly high percantage, 15-20%.

15-20% Sort of puts the kibosh on the whole idea of "house style" doesn't it?

I don't have nearly enough experience to even attempt such a feat, but I would hope that once I do have more experience that I would be able to identify producers in a blind test. Given some of the results we've seen here, though, I suspect I'll never be very good at it. I'm thinking specifically of the Taylor vs Fonseca head-to-head vertical where two of our FTLOP experts both correctly identified 4/7 (which is statistically identical to guessing). It's clearly much more difficult than it seems like it should be, at least if "house style" has any merit at all.

[Roy Hersh]

Glenn,

When I was in the food and wine business there used to be an International Vinifera Conference held in Seattle every two years. The last one took place in 2000. At one of these, there was a session of 10 Masters of Wine. 5 were from the USA (including Bob Betz, David Lake and Steven Tanzer) and five were an impressive panel of very serious names from Europe).

They were on stage and there was a large audience participating. They had to taste 1995 Bordeaux blends made in the Columbia Valley of Washington State, as well as an equal number of glasses of 1995 Bordeaux. They had no idea which was which and ALL they had to do was say from what place each wine was from ... blind.

These 10 men and women who had spent years of their lives in the wine business as writers/journalists/critics/winemakers etc... proved to us that even experts degreed with MW titles, were not good at blind tasting educated guesses. The majority had only 4-6 of them correctly placed. A few had only 2-3 right and only had 7 or more correct. All they had to do was determine which was the real McCoy from Bordeaux vs. the new world, sounds easy doesn't it.

At the Factory House, in May 1994, I was with the Managing Directors of Port firms, owners and a couple of winemakers for their (then weekly) Wed. lunch. At the end of the meal that contained a glass of Port with every course, some courses had two glasses, came the guessing game they always do. A decanter was passed around (that week's "host" decanted and placed the wine in decanter and was disqualified from placing a guess). As the guest, I was asked by Rupert Symington's dad James, to guess first. Do you want to talk about intimidating, given the "audience"!

My guess of producer was off, but at the end of the game, I found my vintage guess was off by 3 years. Of the 20 other men (including me there were 22 at this table) placing guesses, NOBODY got both producer and vintage correctly. One or two gents did guess the vintage spot on, the rest were no better than me ... this little nobody amongst this esteemed group. A few (2-3) got the producer correctly. Another lesson in humility; but more so, the futility in blind guessing games with wine!

Guessing wines blind is nothing more than a parlor trick --- fun to watch, but meaningless.

Experts are not much better at this than us, if at all. However, I did have a professor of one of my wine classes, while going for my certification as a Sommellier in 1995, that had the most uncanny ability to get almost everything right on the money at a very high percentage of accuracy. Every week, someone would bring in a bottle to stump him. From all over the world, from obscure places and grapes and he was right with the variety of grape, often times spot on or within 1-3 years of the vintage, the region ... he was typically at 80% or better and once or twice guessed the exact producer. I have never before or since seen anybody who had that ability. He was surely the greatest blind taster I've ever seen at this. His name was Rob Stewart, in Alexandria Virginia (this was 1995 when I lived in VA) and I will never forget him. I also know two other gents Fred Dame and Darryl Corti who have insane abilities to pull this off and although I've met both and judged on a panel with one of them, I've never personally witnessed their legendary ability.

All of that said, I can honestly say that being a good guesser of wines while drinking blind, does not make you a better taster. The MWs explained this at the Vinifera Conference ... of course, AFTER being humbled on stage in front of a large and live audience of wine geeks ITB. But I believe they are right. What matters when tasting blind is to be able to parse out the qualities of the wine. From nose to taste, body weight, structure, finish etc. That is what you need to do and do very well to be a professional wine judge ... and have a solid ability to nail wine flaws too. That to me, is far more important than being able to impress people by guessing right, on occasion, who the producer is or exactly what the vintage is. A neat trick, no doubt and you feel good when you do nail one.

With thousands of bottles (I am sure more than 10,000-15,000) under my belt, I have probably nailed dead on: producer/vintage/grape/region etc... 10 times in my whole 25 years drinking wine. Nonetheless, when assessed for qualifying for professional wine judging competitions, I have been deemed to have a good palate and even better nose. In my tasting groups, I am the canary in the coal mine who is the first to tell them, "this wine is corked" or other such issues. Even in Portugal on our trips, I am usually telling the producers that their wines are corked on the rare occasion that we experience that because someone has not checked the bottle or decanter before pouring for us. I can get pretty close with vintage and occasionally nail them with Port wine, but rarely if ever get producer right. It is just not in me.

A long story above ... but you get the point. In the scheme of life ... what does it matter if you can guess properly? That is why I had zero issue putting forth Julian's article that you attribute in your post, in my own newsletter which correctly pointed out my own lack of being able to guess between two producers in a blind format. I don't think anyone in the room that day of a decent size group, was any more accurate than us. Maybe someone had 5 right, maybe someone even said they had six right ... but what can I say.

What does matter is this: do you like the wine or not. Even my daughter, at 5, can tell me that. At formal presentations/classes that I do, I always mention that when I get rasberries and someone else says they smell pears ... both of us are correct and neither wrong. Wine appreciation is very much a subjective view into the glass.