Extremely nerdy question: different styles of IVP neck label

Steven Kooij · Post by **Steven Kooij** » Mon Feb 27, 2006 3:08 pm

I hope the posters here can help me out – I’m trying to identify the period in which a NV bottle of Port in my collection was bottled, and I thought the neck label / the “selo de garantia” could provide a clue – but checking different bottles I’m even more confused…

As far as I know, there are two styles of neck labels (see this link for examples, somehow I can’t post a picture directly in this thread).
On the left and right you see the “old” label: the band is of less broad as those being used today, and the “seal” itself is larger. Also, the “old” label has only a number in the middle, while the “new” label has some letters above and a number below the “big” number in the middle of the seal. The bottle in the middle has a "new" seal, whilst the bottle on the right has an even lesser broad band (no pun intended) than the bottle on the left.

What I would like to know is this: when was the “old” type of label replaced by the “new” type? Were they both used during a same timeframe?
I’ve looked at the (few) bottles of pre-1970 VP in my collection, and they ALL have the “new” style label. It could of course be that these are bottles that have been released after spending time in the cellars of the shipper, and then being labelled and sold.
I think the best chance of finding an answer is with older Colheitas – as these are bottled to be sold directly. To give an example: the bottle on the left in the picture I’ve posted is a Krohn 1900 Colheita, bottled in 1974 – it has the old style label. I’ve seen bottlings from 1984 and 1996 of this Port with the new style label. So – did the neck label change sometime between 1974 and 1984? All the ’70 and ’75 VPs I’ve tried have had the “new” label…(but that VP again).

I would like to ask those of you with older Colheita bottling in the cellar to have a look at your bottles, and report back which neck label your bottles have, and in which year the wine was bottled (if it says so on the label). Thanks in advance!

Steven Kooij · Post by **Steven Kooij** » Sat Mar 04, 2006 4:51 pm

68 views without a reply - Surely there are posters with old(er) bottlings in the cellar?

Post by **Andy Velebil** » Sat Mar 04, 2006 8:24 pm

Sorry, can't help you on this one :x

Derek T. · Post by **Derek T.** » Tue Mar 07, 2006 2:08 am

Steve,

I have a couple of old Neipoort Colhieta's ( 1957 and 1968 ) in the cellar and will dig them out tonight and send you some pictures.

A few months ago I did ask Roy to trace my 1957 as it doesn't have a bottling date stated on the main label. At the same time I asked Roy whether or not it was possible to work out the vintage, bottling date etc from the codes on the neck label. The answer was no and it seems that the coding used to identify bottles is a closely guarded secret within the trade - presumably to avoid fraud.

All that said, I suppose the only way to determine the period in which each style of label was used is to find bottles that had the label applied when bottled. Most of these would be under the capsule.

Derek

Steven Kooij · Post by **Steven Kooij** » Tue Mar 07, 2006 9:57 am

TIA, Derek!

Derek T. · Post by **Derek T.** » Tue Mar 07, 2006 1:47 pm

Steve,

Here goes - hope at least some of this helps

I found 7 old bottles of Aged Tawny, LBV or Colheita with neck labels. I will e-mail you some pictures tonight.

Niepoort Colheita 1957 - no bottling date on label but obviously an old bottle. New style IDVP label under capsule.

Noval 1965 LBV - no bottling date on label but again, an old looking bottle. As it is an LBV it is probably around 1969-1973. Old style IDVP label over capsule.

Feist 1965 "Vielli en Fut" - bottled 1975 - new style label under capsule. I only just noticed the "Vielli en Fut"

I have always assumed this is a Colheita and have never seen this description - anyone seen this before?

Neipoort 1968 Colheita - bottled in 1983 - new style IDVP label under capsule

Niepoort LBV 1975 - bottled 1979 - new style IDVP label over capsule

Taylor 20 Years Old Tawny - bottled 1973 - old style IDVP label under capsule

Fonseca 20 Years Old Tawny - bottled 1978 - new style IDVP label under capsule

From the bottles I have it seems that the new style label was introduced between 1973 and 1975. Your Krohn 1900 bottled in 1974 with an old label suggests the new label came in 1975. It also seems that my Neipoort 1957 was bottled in 1975 or later.

Can I join the Nerdy Club?

Derek

Derek T. · Post by **Derek T.** » Tue Mar 07, 2006 2:15 pm

I now have my own nerdy question.

In looking for the bottles noted above I came across a bottle of Sandeman Ruby which is obviously very old but has no IDVP label and (obvioulsy) no bottling date or vintage.

The main label, which is mainly grey with 3 small red crosses across the centre, has "By special appointment to His Majesty King George V" and a serial number "A 380,956". From the royal appointment I assume this bottle pre-dates 1936 but I am surprised to see a serial number on a bottle of plain ruby of this age.

Any ideas?

Has anyone come across this form of serial number on the main label?

Derek

Steven Kooij · Post by **Steven Kooij** » Tue Mar 07, 2006 2:25 pm

Derek: THANK YOU! Now that's the kind of information I was hoping for - I'm a happy man, and looking forward to some pictures.

The "Vielli en Fut" on your bottle of Feist is probably ment to be French for "aged on barrel" - Colheita it is. And I'm very interested in your bottle of Niepoort 1975 LBV: does it have a paper label, or a painted one like this?
BTW: this is the bottle I'm trying to date - I've also send an email to Dirk Niepoort with a request for information.

Concerning your bottle of Niepoort '57 - does it have a paper back label? If it was indeed bottled after '74 or '75 (I think we can safely assume this was the time the new neck label was introduced) it *should* state the bottling date...and I think even on the front label - this law was introduced in '72 or '73 if I'm not mistaken. Is it a short, fat bottle? As I understand, Niepoort bottled a lot of their old Colheitas in this style of bottle in 1972.
Could it be that it was a late-release bottling? Bottled, but not labeled - and given a label, capsule and neck label after 1975?

And I'm sorry I can't help you with your Sandeman query - they did bottle a 1935 Jubilee Vintage, but that is as far a my knowledge goes...

Derek T. · Post by **Derek T.** » Tue Mar 07, 2006 2:39 pm

Steve,

The 11Mb e-mail is still trying to leave my Outbox!!

The LBV 1975 has a paper label - I bought it in an old wine shop in Villamoura (southern Portugal) about 6 years ago for about £10 8) - I like collecting old bottles but it's hard not to open this one as I've heard it should still be alive.

The 1957 does have a small paper label on the back. It is a standard Niepoort bottle like those they still use today.

Hopefully someone else will shed some light on the Sandeman.

Derek

Derek T. · Post by **Derek T.** » Tue Mar 07, 2006 2:49 pm

Steve,

Your mailbox knocked-back my e-mail - do you have another e-mail address that accepts large attachments? If not, you'll have to wait until Roy and Stuart sort out the upload facilty on this site!

Derek

Steven Kooij · Post by **Steven Kooij** » Tue Mar 07, 2006 3:22 pm

11MB might be too much for all my mail accounts - should you have the time to resize the pictures: thanks! But I can receive much larger attachments at steven at rocawijnen dot nl and steven at o - drie dot nl (remove spaces etc.)

Should this not work, shoot me a PM and I'll give you an address where you can upload the photos...but a resize would be simpler I think (a 600x800 jpg for instance).

Thanks again Derek - I'll post a new topic re. the Niepoort 1975 once I get your photo! It's an interesting Port...

Tom Archer · Post by **Tom Archer** » Tue Mar 07, 2006 4:01 pm

Has anyone come across this form of serial number on the main label

Yes, I have this on a Sandeman '47 VP

Tom

Derek T. · Post by **Derek T.** » Wed Mar 08, 2006 3:59 am

Steve,

I have sent you a picture of the LBV 75 - will sort the others later.

I think I'll e-mail Sandeman to see if they can tell me when my bottle was produced.

Regards

Derek

Post by **Roy Hersh** » Thu Mar 09, 2006 2:17 am

I asked Roy whether or not it was possible to work out the vintage, bottling date etc from the codes on the neck label. The answer was no and it seems that the coding used to identify bottles is a closely guarded secret within the trade - presumably to avoid fraud.

Actually, to be accurate ... it IS possible to figure out a specific vintage and bottling date and lot from the IVP or IVDP Seal of Guarantee. Unfortunately, although I authenticate lots of bottles, the information has never been provided to me re: specifics of their coding system in relationship to a particular bottle.

I appologize for not having read this particular thread until now. Sometimes I miss one. I think there is a lot of very interesting questions here and worthy of more research. I do have the resources but will have to delve into this next week.

You can email Sandeman and see what you find out. I had two cases of '35 and have other oldies in my collection, mostly in my EMPTY bottle collection.

If your resources don't pan out I have some fine contacts there that will find your information if it is still on record. Since you are in the wine business, I am sure you'll be able to get access to the info you seek. I will check back here though and will follow up if you are unable to progress.

Also, I will be able to give you a pretty good idea on some older bottles of VP and Colheita that I own, about the Seal information on them, too.

Derek T. · Post by **Derek T.** » Thu Mar 09, 2006 2:32 am

Roy,

When I said "the answer is no" I was meaning for mere mortals like myself. I didn't mean to suggest there was no link between the code and the wine inside the bottle. That link seems to be the bit that the IDVP keep to themselves.

Derek

Post by **Roy Hersh** » Thu Mar 09, 2006 2:42 am

I totally realize that. I just wanted to be clear that I did not reply to you, that it was impossible to tell the vintage etc. from the Seal. Trust me, when it comes to this information, we are all mortals. I will dig into this further now that interest has been piqued here.

Derek T. · Post by **Derek T.** » Thu Mar 09, 2006 4:23 am

Roy,

You may recall trying to trace the bottling year of my Niepoort 1957 Colheita. From memory, I think the IDVP (or whoever it is you contact) said that they either could not or would not do it for this bottle.

Given Steve's comments above about the timing of when it became compulsory to state the bottling date, and the fact that the style of IDVP label on my bottle suggests that it post dates that rule, I wonder whether or not you could perhaps have another attempt at trying to trace it for me?

Derek

Post by **Roy Hersh** » Thu Mar 09, 2006 11:29 am

Since some of this information is now back in my hands from the IVDP, and it ties into the thread on EXTRA CREDIT HOMEWORK ASSIGNMENT,
please see the thead I'll create in a moment ... so no one misses it, IVDP Seal of Guarantee.

Andrew Stevenson · Post by **Andrew Stevenson** » Fri Mar 10, 2006 8:31 am

Steven Kooij wrote:As far as I know, there are two styles of neck labels (see this link for examples, somehow I can’t post a picture directly in this thread).

As far as I can see the

For The Love Of Port

Extremely nerdy question: different styles of IVP neck label

Extremely nerdy question: different styles of IVP neck label

Re: Extremely nerdy question: different styles of IVP neck l