Last Nights 5 AAA Stars Restaurant Port Experience

[Victor D.]

Read a another thread here on Ports or lack thereof and/or experience in regards to restaurants. Well last night the Minister of Finance and I headed to a 5 Star AAA rating restaurant located in a VERY fine Hotel. We've been there before and knew they had (literally) a 25 page wine menus. I had never looked at the ports before, so I was excited to see what they had.

After 23+ pages of fine wines, I located a half page of ports. There was about 11 ports on the menu, 4 of which they told me they only had in stock. One of them was a 1970 Talylor VP I asked them to bring me the bottle to look at. When they brought the bottle, it's weight was just about empty and asked them how long it had been open? I got the deer in the headlights look, and told me he would be right back. He came back approx. 10 minutes later and told me no one knew but he would pour me a sample. At $40 bones for a 2oz pour, this was needed to say the least.. I knew immediately this VP must have been opened for a LONG time. Virtually no aroma and flat was an understatement....I asked the waiter if they would uncork another bottle, but of course they did not any more left in stock.

Needless to say the wifeee and I decided, our own port sitting in our wine cooler would be our best bet in our normal back yard setting. Sometimes though, having one after a fine dinner out would be nice.

This particular restaurant was the last hope I had that a FINE restaurant such as this with such an EXTENSIVE wine selection would come through serving a VP. Not to be....

[Peter W. Meek]

Frankly, you are asking for the impossible. Unless they specialize in port by the glass (with a MAJOR port-drinking clientele), they cannot hope to be able to provide drinkable vintage ports, much less a variety. Although at $40/2 oz, they could pour a few glasses and toss the rest of the bottle. (Or use the remainder to train staff in what is important about port.)

[Andy Velebil]

Victor,
Sorry to hear about your experience, especially in such a high end restaurant. But sadly, as Peter mentioned, your experience as all to familiar to us Port lovers. It seems most restaurants fail to give their staff any training in regards to Port and it's even sadder to see most places don't even suggest it. I've know of a number of places that don't even list it on their wine list, you have to either see it sitting on the bar and ask for it or just know it's there. Being my favorite beverage it drives me nuts.

However some of the blame also lies with the sales reps/distributors who fail to organize or give even basic training to a restaurants staff. It's a shame, at least here in the US, that some sales reps don't push Port, Douro wines, and Madeira's more. In all fairness, I also know of some reps that work hard at trying to educate but meet with resistance from the restaurant/bar's management.

The question is, what can we do as a consumer to try and push for better education, better selections, and better pricing. The later being one of the main reasons so many Ports sit open on the shelf. The pricing model for wine sold in a restaurant just doesn't seem to work when applied to Port.

[Moses Botbol]

Restaurants should start buying port nips and 375's for less popular stuff and just carry a couple of popular well price ports by glass in full bottle.

There's one place in Boston sitting on Nacionals at retail, not restaurant prices I want to do a dinner party but don't know enough people who'd be willing to chip in.

[Brian C.]

This reminds me of the time, when I definitely didn't know any better, I ordered a glass of 1983 Dow VP. The big clump of sediment at the bottom of my glass made for a most enjoyable drinking experience, anyway. Thankfully they didn't make me pay for it.

[Victor D.]

Frankly, you are asking for the impossible. Unless they specialize in port by the glass (with a MAJOR port-drinking clientele), they cannot hope to be able to provide drinkable vintage ports, much less a variety. Although at $40/2 oz, they could pour a few glasses and toss the rest of the bottle. (Or use the remainder to train staff in what is important about port.)

Simply then, (not impossible) they should NOT even list the ports they showed on the menu... They should just take them off to avoid my whole issue with them.

I for one will not even look any longer for Ports at any U.S. public restaurant no matter how good their wine list may be. Funny, the only port I've ever found, (with a crew who was educated) was on a cruise to Alaska on Holland America. This is where I got intro'd to VP's.

[Moses Botbol]

Simply then, (not impossible) they should NOT even list the ports they showed on the menu... They should just take them off to avoid my whole issue with them.

I for one will not even look any longer for Ports at any U.S. public restaurant no matter how good their wine list may be. Funny, the only port I've ever found, (with a crew who was educated) was on a cruise to Alaska on Holland America. This is where I got intro'd to VP's.

I've been to restaurants where the port was not on the menu, but rather a cart that came to the table with port, madeira, and any other after dinner booze one might consider. From that cart, a sample could be had to ensure the consumer is happy or avoid keeping old bottles that aren't worth being served.

[Victor D.]

Victor,
Sorry to hear about your experience, especially in such a high end restaurant. But sadly, as Peter mentioned, your experience as all to familiar to us Port lovers. It seems most restaurants fail to give their staff any training in regards to Port and it's even sadder to see most places don't even suggest it. I've know of a number of places that don't even list it on their wine list, you have to either see it sitting on the bar and ask for it or just know it's there. Being my favorite beverage it drives me nuts.

However some of the blame also lies with the sales reps/distributors who fail to organize or give even basic training to a restaurants staff. It's a shame, at least here in the US, that some sales reps don't push Port, Douro wines, and Madeira's more. In all fairness, I also know of some reps that work hard at trying to educate but meet with resistance from the restaurant/bar's management.

The question is, what can we do as a consumer to try and push for better education, better selections, and better pricing. The later being one of the main reasons so many Ports sit open on the shelf. The pricing model for wine sold in a restaurant just doesn't seem to work when applied to Port.

Andy, you probably heard of this hotel out my way in the Inland Empire. Great restaurant and wine list (on paper)

[Andy Velebil]

Andy, you probably heard of this hotel out my way in the Inland Empire. Great restaurant and wine list (on paper)

My restaurant knowledge out there is a little rusty as of late, but Duane's at Mission Inn? although it's probably been 5 years since I last ate there so not sure what their current rating is.

[Victor D.]

Andy, you probably heard of this hotel out my way in the Inland Empire. Great restaurant and wine list (on paper)

My restaurant knowledge out there is a little rusty as of late, but Duane's at Mission Inn? although it's probably been 5 years since I last ate there so not sure what their current rating is.

ding ding, we have a winner! LoL. NICE.

[Al B.]

Perhaps we're spoiled in London, but there are a number of places which offer port by the glass or bottle and which sell enough of it to make it worth their while.

The perrenial haunt of the London Port Lovers is the Davy's Wine Bar chain. These places are by no means high end restaurants, yet the food they serve and the ambience they create is excellent and most branches of the chain know how to welcome a port lover. Certain branches where port is a feature will have the standard Davy wine bar offerings (currently by the dock (small glass), glass or bottle are Delaforce White, Skeffington Finest Reserve, Warre Otima 10yo and Churchill 1991) but will also have 2-3 other mature vintage ports that are offered for sale by the bottle. Last time I noticed these were Taylor 1980, Gould Campbell 1997 and Offley 1983. Prices are reasonable, with a relatively small 20%ish premium charged compared to retail. You can also pre-order from the Davy's retail wine list if you give 2-3 days notice and this includes wines back to the Taylor 1966. Food is simple, but well prepared and with carefully chosen ingredients. If pre-arranged, you can also BYO for a £10-15 corkage fee.

Another favourite is the El Vino chain. Again these are wine bars which also serve decent food. Until recently, my favourite branch had Fonseca 1970 on offer (by the bottle) but it seems we drank out our supply so now the oldest port on offer is the Fonseca 1977. By the glass is the usual range of Tawny Reserve or Ruby Reserve plus (currently) Smith Woodhouse 1997. Again prices are reasonable with Graham 1991 being £75 in the restaurant.

There are also 2-3 restaurants that I would recommend in London for a port lover, but these are moving up a notch in cost. The first is Portal in St John's Street in Clerkenwell (yes, there is a loose family connection with Quinta do Portal). Portal offers quite a range of port by the glass including 2003, 2000 and 1997 Portal vintage ports. By the bottle, the range is not much bigger than the glass range but does include the 1963 Noval Nacional - at an eye watering £2,800! The Portuguese wine list is excellent and the cuisine is superb. It's also one of the few restaurants in London where you can get mature Serra d'Estrella.

Second recommendation is The Don. The bistro is perfectly reasonably priced (and I have been known to wash down a burger at lunchtime with a shared half bottle of Sandeman Vau 1999) but the restaurant is expensive. However, they have the best port list in London and always have a freshly decanted bottle of something nice (like Taylor 1970) to serve by the glass - often having to decant fresh bottles through the evening as they run out. There are 80 ports on the wine list by the bottle, half bottle or magnum and some of these go back to the early 20th century. Last time I was there, Croft 1927 was on the wine list - but you will certainly pay to be able to drink such a rare bottle. The location is also fabulous as the restaurant is based in Sandeman's old London bottling plant and makes the most of its heritage.

And my last recommendation is a sister restaurant to the Don - The Bleeding Heart in Hatton Garden. Again, excellent food and a terrific wine list, but check out prices before you decide to eat here.

Can I post a links to the company websites?

[Eric Menchen]

Perhaps we're spoiled in London ... Prices are reasonable, with a relatively small 20%ish premium charged compared to retail.

Absolutely you are spoiled. First, you can actually get Port, and second, at those prices. Your retail is already lower, and in a restaurant here I expect a 100% premium over retail. I think anything less is a bargain. Well, I shouldn't say bargain, but better than typical.

[Moses Botbol]

The hotel I have been staying at this year has two bottles of port just for me; Grahams 20 and Fonseca 10. They give me a decent pour and I am the only one drinking from them. I'd bring an IDVP to leave there but I fear I'd be missing out on some port since they are generous with the pours.

[Andy Velebil]

The hotel I have been staying at this year has two bottles of port just for me; Grahams 20 and Fonseca 10. They give me a decent pour and I am the only one drinking from them. I'd bring an IDVP to leave there but I fear I'd be missing out on some port since they are generous with the pours.

Not bad choices. I assume they're using a small white wine type of glass?

[Janet Ainsworth]

I was just pleasantly surprised when dining at a restaurant in Scottsdale Arizona, called Cowboy Ciao. Their wine list is legendary ( I think you can buy copies to take home!) and they had a small but nice selection of ports. The last time we were there, we ordered a ruby reserve--the Noval Black--on the assumption that it would stand up to having been open for a bit. This time we thought we'd try something with a little higher risk factor--a 2003 Dow crusted. We asked if it had been opened, and if so, when. Their wine guy--really, it's not a pretentious enough place to call him a sommelier--said they had a bottle that was three quarters empty that had been opened but under nitrogen for about two weeks. Then he suggested that he would be happy to open a new bottle and pour us a couple of glasses now, if we wanted, so that the port could open up a bit while we ate dinner. That's what he did--in white wine glasses so that the port could be swirled around. He didn't decant, but poured carefully enough that sediment in the unopened bottle wasn't an issue.

That's the kind of restaurant service that would make port-ordering a reasonable habit to get into!

[Andy Velebil]

I was just pleasantly surprised when dining at a restaurant in Scottsdale Arizona, called Cowboy Ciao. Their wine list is legendary ( I think you can buy copies to take home!) and they had a small but nice selection of ports. The last time we were there, we ordered a ruby reserve--the Noval Black--on the assumption that it would stand up to having been open for a bit. This time we thought we'd try something with a little higher risk factor--a 2003 Dow crusted. We asked if it had been opened, and if so, when. Their wine guy--really, it's not a pretentious enough place to call him a sommelier--said they had a bottle that was three quarters empty that had been opened but under nitrogen for about two weeks. Then he suggested that he would be happy to open a new bottle and pour us a couple of glasses now, if we wanted, so that the port could open up a bit while we ate dinner. That's what he did--in white wine glasses so that the port could be swirled around. He didn't decant, but poured carefully enough that sediment in the unopened bottle wasn't an issue.

That's the kind of restaurant service that would make port-ordering a reasonable habit to get into!

Excellent service for sure. The kinda place I'd visit often if I lived nearby it.

[Moses Botbol]

The hotel I have been staying at this year has two bottles of port just for me; Grahams 20 and Fonseca 10. They give me a decent pour and I am the only one drinking from them. I'd bring an IDVP to leave there but I fear I'd be missing out on some port since they are generous with the pours.

Not bad choices. I assume they're using a small white wine type of glass?

Exactly. Standard white wine pour is what I get. Fonseca is getting a little tired at this point. Going to tell him next week to open a new bottle. Haven't the Graham too often, will have to check out again in a few days. Although not spoken often about, I was digging the Fonseca 10 after a few glasses. Certainly not Ferreira or Ramos Pinto, but has its own unique flair.