Do you feel this is hypocrisy or not?

[Glenn E.]

My point was simply that, while probably a noxious practice, Heitz using the word "Port" on their label is not directly comparable to the case of a non-Napa producer deliberately trying to deceive consumers into believing their wine is from Napa.

I don't understand the distinction. How is it okay for Heitz to use the term "Port" to deliberately confuse consumers about their product, but not okay for other wineries to use "Napa" to do the same?

Just because it has been going on for decades doesn't make it okay. The point of using "Port" on the label of a non-Port wine is to confuse consumers and make them think that the product is something that it is not. Which is exactly what Napa is now complaining about when non-Napa wineries use the term "Napa" on their labels.

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[Tom D.]

My point was simply that, while probably a noxious practice, Heitz using the word "Port" on their label is not directly comparable to the case of a non-Napa producer deliberately trying to deceive consumers into believing their wine is from Napa.

I don't understand the distinction. How is it okay for Heitz to use the term "Port" to deliberately confuse consumers about their product, but not okay for other wineries to use "Napa" to do the same?

Just because it has been going on for decades doesn't make it okay.

Glenn, where did I say it is okay?

I am taking a contrary position here for reasons I'm not elucidating very well. Super bowl today but I'll try to gather my thoughts and restate them tomorrow...

[Glenn E.]

Glenn, where did I say it is ok?

Apologies; you didn't. However, my confusion about the distinction remains. To me the situations appear to be identical except in how long they have been going on.

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[Roy Hersh]

Waiting for Tom to show up again to elucidate.

[Carl D]

It's not just the California (and other) wineries that believe that Port is a style of wine. This from the website of a major retailer in their explanation of a bottle of 1977 Grahams VP:

Port
- Port is a fortified wine made by stopping the fermentation with brandy. The result is a heavy sweet wine, most often red, that is dense, rich and high in alcohol. Port is made all over the world with some great results in Australia and South Africa, but the most famous of these dessert wines come from Portugal. The great port houses (or lodges) are located along the Duoro River on the steep slate slopes high above the valley floor. There are several styles of port, including Ruby, Tawny, Vintage Character, Late Bottle Vintage, Colheita, and Single Quinta. Vintage ports are made in special years that the houses declare. View our bestselling Port.

[Paul Fountain]

It's not just the California (and other) wineries that believe that Port is a style of wine. This from the website of a major retailer in their explanation of a bottle of 1977 Grahams VP:

Port
- Port is a fortified wine made by stopping the fermentation with brandy. The result is a heavy sweet wine, most often red, that is dense, rich and high in alcohol. Port is made all over the world with some great results in Australia and South Africa, but the most famous of these dessert wines come from Portugal. The great port houses (or lodges) are located along the Duoro River on the steep slate slopes high above the valley floor. There are several styles of port, including Ruby, Tawny, Vintage Character, Late Bottle Vintage, Colheita, and Single Quinta. Vintage ports are made in special years that the houses declare. View our bestselling Port.

That's a really good point - It's one thing getting the wineries to change, but it is another again to get the retailers, restaurants and some of the media to tow the line.

[Derek T.]

If producers didn't misuse the name Port the retailers, restaurants, media and consumers wouldn't be confused into making inaccurate statements like the one above.

Tom, I think you have just defeated your own argument!

[Rob C.]

Tom, I think you have just defeated your own argument!

Derek...I don't think Tom posted this...

I must admit, regardless of what any legislation may say, i know many people who view "port" or "champagne" as a generic style and refer to in the same way as "white" or "red" or "dessert wine" - even if what is actually being referred to is a fortified port-style wine or a sparkling wine from outside the designated regions. Likewise, many other people will express their preference for wines in terms of grape style (eg: "riesling", "chardonnay" or "shiraz/syrah") or blend (eg: bordeaux blend), regardless of place of origin (which is very much an unimportant secondary consideration for them). Personally I regard the use of port to describe a particular style of fortified red or champagne to describe a sparkling wine in the same way as the use of hoover to describe a vacuum cleaner - it may be technically incorrect, but i wouldn't be a pedant in social conversation by pointing it out (unless, that is, it was someone like Derek getting it wrong!).

[Glenn E.]

If producers didn't misuse the name Port the retailers, restaurants, media and consumers wouldn't be confused into making inaccurate statements like the one above.

Exactly.

Just because it has been going on for decades doesn't make it right to continue to misuse the term.

[Derek T.]

Tom, I think you have just defeated your own argument!

Thanks, Rob. Apologies to Tom and Carl for my error.

i wouldn't be a pedant in social conversation by pointing it out (unless, that is, it was someone like Derek getting it wrong!).

I would expect nothing less from you, Sir

[Glenn E.]

Personally I regard the use of port to describe a particular style of fortified red or champagne to describe a sparkling wine in the same way as the use of hoover to describe a vacuum cleaner - it may be technically incorrect, but i wouldn't be a pedant in social conversation by pointing it out (unless, that is, it was someone like Derek getting it wrong!).

The industry, however, MUST be pedantic about it. Otherwise "Port" will go the way of aspirin (originally a Bayer trademark), heroin (also originally a Bayer trademark), and escalator (originally an Otis Elevator trademark).

What the industry is doing now is what Nintendo had to do in the 80s. They coined the term "game console" as the generic name in order to recover their own name which people had started to use generically.

[Derek T.]

This thread keeps drifting slightly, but significantly, off-topic.

The question posed is not whether or not it is right or wrong for a region to want to protect the name of its wines. The question is whether or not it is hypocritical for a region that seeks to protect its own name is being hypocritical by not recognising another regions right/wish to protect theirs.

I think if you take the emotion out of the debate the answer is clearly yes.

[Eric Menchen]

... the use of port to describe a particular style of fortified red or champagne to describe a sparkling wine in the same way as the use of hoover to describe a vacuum cleaner - it may be technically incorrect, but i wouldn't be a pedant in social conversation by pointing it out (unless, that is, it was someone like Derek getting it wrong!).

The list of brand names that have come to represent their product in general is quite long. That isn't to say that using those names as such is correct, and most of the brand name owners fight to protect them.

[Rob C.]

This thread keeps drifting slightly, but significantly, off-topic.

The question posed is not whether or not it is right or wrong for a region to want to protect the name of its wines. The question is whether or not it is hypocritical for a region that seeks to protect its own name is being hypocritical by not recognising another regions right/wish to protect theirs.

I think if you take the emotion out of the debate the answer is clearly yes.

Well...the answer is only "clearly yes" if the "Napa Valley Vintners" are still actively tolerating the use by their 400 or so members of terms such as "champagne" and "port" on the wine labels.

Is it actually the case that, since 2005 when Napa Valley Vintners signed up to a joint declaration with the IVDP and the CIVC (for Champagne) regarding the need to protect place names, they have continued to tolerate their members reneging on these principles?

The article does not suggest this (the quote re: American Champagne is from an entirely different organisation), but i don't know enough about Napa to comment further.

[Rex S]

I'm a port lover and work for the Napa Valley Vintners. Vintners in Napa Valley voluntarily gave up the use of the term "Champagne" many years ago, instead switching to "sparkling wine." We continue to work on the term "port," but it is not as easy because of the lack of an acceptable alternate for some of our members. Nevertheless, progress is being made here. Changes like this don't always occur overnight. In fact, the efforts of the Napa Valley Vintners to encourage the respect and protection of wine growing place names has not gone unnoticed in Europe, including our friends in Porto. I was at a dinner in the cellar of my friend George Sandeman last summer, with dozens if not hundreds of port wine producers from the region, where the efforts of the Napa Valley Vintners to protect "Port" were applauded. We look forward to continuing our work with our friends in Oporto to protect and respect their name here and elsewhere, as we continue our work to ensure the Napa Valley name is not infringed upon.

[Glenn E.]

We continue to work on the term "port," but it is not as easy because of the lack of an acceptable alternate for some of our members.

Aren't the aftereffects of Prohibition lovely, nearly 80 years after it was repealed?

The obvious answer is to use "fortified wine" as the generic name, but "fortified" is prohibited and has been since Prohibition. Apparently there is an appeal underway to get the TTB to finally remove that restriction. In the interim, the term "angelica" already exists and is approved as a sub-type of sweet, fortified wine.

[Jeff G.]

The industry, however, MUST be pedantic about it. Otherwise "Port" will go the way of aspirin (originally a Bayer trademark), heroin (also originally a Bayer trademark)
.

It took a war for that to happen tho =)

[Eric Menchen]

Didn't take a war for astroturf, band-aid, bubble wrap, crock pot, ... realtor ...

[Roy Hersh]

Or tissue (by Kleenex) for that matter.

But let's get back on track.

I applaud Rex for coming forth with his first post and explaining what is being done, or at least the attempts being made. In all honesty, I think that the producers in Napa, Australia and elsewhere that ARE doing their best to modify the names of products in order to protect place names is not only commendable, but should be supported.

Nonetheless, I agree with Derek's last posting too, as you can't have it both ways and that was why I initially posted this topic, to stir the pot and bring attention to a detail close to home for many of us. There are still companies in CA that are using the name "Port", some because they are intentionally skirting the law, knowing that the TTB budget doesn't allow much in the way of punitive measures and although enforcement is loosely in place, the "teeth" are not as sharp as they should be.

In the March newsletter, there will be a very detailed article which I'm in the process of writing, which will shed further light on this situation for those unfamiliar with the depths of this topic: from a legislative, lobbying, enforcement, historical and forward looking vantage point. I hope you will all enjoy the read. I have been in discussion with the point person for this topic in the USA.

One thing from above:

The great port houses (or lodges) are located along the Duoro River on the steep slate slopes high above the valley floor

It is inaccurate writing like this that drives me crazy. We all know the Port lodges are in Vila Nova de Gaia and there are no steep slopes there (not counting the river walls). This person obviously meant or should have used the word Quinta to describe what is in the upper Douro River Valley. That said, "slate" ... er, I've never really considered the schistous and granite-laden soil and protrusions of the Douro as "slate" before to be honest.

[Andy Velebil]

I'm a port lover and work for the Napa Valley Vintners. Vintners in Napa Valley voluntarily gave up the use of the term "Champagne" many years ago, instead switching to "sparkling wine." We continue to work on the term "port," but it is not as easy because of the lack of an acceptable alternate for some of our members. Nevertheless, progress is being made here. Changes like this don't always occur overnight. In fact, the efforts of the Napa Valley Vintners to encourage the respect and protection of wine growing place names has not gone unnoticed in Europe, including our friends in Porto. I was at a dinner in the cellar of my friend George Sandeman last summer, with dozens if not hundreds of port wine producers from the region, where the efforts of the Napa Valley Vintners to protect "Port" were applauded. We look forward to continuing our work with our friends in Oporto to protect and respect their name here and elsewhere, as we continue our work to ensure the Napa Valley name is not infringed upon.

Rex
Thanks for chiming in and giving us a more accurate account of what is going on in Napa. And I also must say to