Are Colheitas in "declared vintages" better?

Marco D. · Post by **Marco D.** » Tue Jun 06, 2006 10:31 am

Just curious as to people's opinions on this. One of the best Colheitas I've had, and I admit to not having a ton, was a 1966 Krohn -- which came from a "declared vintage". Just coincidence?

My gut would tell me the best grapes would be reserved for the vintage ports, thus reducing the average quality for Colheitas. But then again the average quality would be higher than normal. Maybe there is no correlation?

Any opinions?

Ronald Wortel · Post by **Ronald Wortel** » Tue Jun 06, 2006 10:50 am

I've always understood that grapes for VP need to meet different specifics than grapes for colheita. E.g. for colheita the grape doesn't necessarily needs to have lots of color extract. One of my favorite colheitas at the moment is the Noval 1974; a great port from a worthless year for VP.

Marco D. · Post by **Marco D.** » Tue Jun 06, 2006 11:04 am

Ah yes... the 74 Noval, I forgot about that one! A wonderful wine from the revolution year!

Tom Archer · Post by **Tom Archer** » Tue Jun 06, 2006 1:30 pm

There are conflicting reports about the 1974 vintage - Broadbent says it was marred by heavy rain, but Mayson says it was dry.

I'm inclined to give Mayson the benefit, as he's spent more time in the Douro and has taken the trouble to read the vintage reports at the principal quintas.

I suspect that the '74 vintage was a victim of the revolution - that the events unfolding took everyone's eye off the ball - but I'd love to read those vintage reports for myself.

Maybe one day someone will scan some and post them on the 'net..

Tom

Gustavo Devesas · Post by **Gustavo Devesas** » Tue Jun 06, 2006 2:21 pm

I share more or less the same opinion,altough as I often say to our customers here:The Harvest year for a Colheita it's not so important.
Why?
-Because the Colheita Ports are the product from a small 550 barrel so, the best oak you have(in theory) the better Colheita you get.
Of course that if it's a good/exceptional Vintage year it helps, but in my opnion, good years are mostly for VP.
One last theory,but what is, necessarely a good Vintage year?What ourselves call as Classic Vintage years?but this only exists for big port companies like Taylor's take the example of the 80's décade:
82 - Taylor's Terra Feita
83 - Taylor's
84 - Taylor's Vargellas
85 - Taylor's

It's easy to understand that Taylor's has to be every year in the wine shop shells but for me the Future in VP it's mostly in the VP from small producers...(this ones they only can make 4/5 real VP in a décade) altough they need to improve some details to reach a very high quality level.
It's funny because I'm having more and more people that after knowing how the Port bussiness works and specifically the VP "bussiness" are changing their habits for Colheita Ports...nevertheless this is still very interesting Ports for very reasonable and fair prices!

PS - (With exception for my VP Noval Nacional that should arrive tomorrow arrrey!!)

Best regards

Frederick Blais · Post by **Frederick Blais** » Tue Jun 06, 2006 3:22 pm

Gustavo Devesas wrote:I
-Because the Colheita Ports are the product from a small 550 barrel so, the best oak you have(in theory) the better Colheita you get.

Of course that if it's a good/exceptional Vintage year it helps, but in my opnion, good years are mostly for VP.

The oak is not very important for Colheita or any other tawny Port, at least not to give flavours. It is only a way to get the oxydation process going. They use very old barrels to be certain that no flavours is given to the wine by these.

For colheita, you can't refer to charts given by magazine or any other experts to know if it is a good year or not. Because these charts refer to Vintage quality harvest. What a colheita needs to be good is not the same thing as a vintage. We can compare this to Bordeaux, sometimes its a good year for Merlot and other times its better for Cabernet.

Just like that in the Douro, but in the end we only talk about Vintage quality in the harvest because it is what will drive the market sales 2 years later and it is the flagship wines of many company. The other thing too is that we can't check the quality of the colheitas before they reach 7 years old and many more years for some others. At that time, the interest is put foward the new Vintage, not the 7 year old colheita that is good but will be great in 20 years...

Post by **Roy Hersh** » Tue Jun 06, 2006 9:04 pm

For once, I must say I agree with EVERYTHING that was written ... by Frederick.

Ole Udsen · Post by **Ole Udsen** » Mon Jun 26, 2006 11:51 pm

I personally think that vintages have little relevance when it comes to colheitas. The best colheitas invariably stay for long periods in wood, and it is my contention that it is common knowledge in the wine industry that wines based on exactly the same raw materials develop very differently in their separate casks/barrels/pipes. This would be enhanced the longer the stay in wood.

The first growths of Bordeaux, for instance, carefully select the best individual barrels - containing what was initially exactly the same fermented wine - for their first wine, and relegate the contents of the somewhat lesser barrels to their second wines.

Thus, port producers do not necessarily know from the outset that the contents of a particular pipe are destined for colheita-dom. If the contents turn out bad, they will be used for their lesser ports (or sold off to less conscientious shippers or the French sauce-making industry), while if they develop exceptionally, they will be used for colheitas and/or old tawnies.

The quality/integrity of the pipe (regardless of the age of the pipe) obviously is of major importance in maintaining the high quality of a specific vintage, and so is good cellar practice (topping up, hygiene etc.). However, while a good vintage of course can develop into a good colheita, you see great colheitas from what are not generally declared vintages too. I am sure that grape selection is important in this respect, and it has been pointed out above that the requirements for e.g. colour are not necessarily the same as for vintage ports.

For the record, the best colheitas I have ever had (and I have had many)are the 1965 Krohn and the 1959 Niepoort, not exactly the most highly-praised vintages (and the theory (myth?) that the best grapes in poor vintages go into colheitas, whereas the best grapes in great vintages go into VPs would thus seem to be borne out). For the related - yet quite different - port style of garrafeira, the best one ever was the 1863 from Ferreira.

Best regards
Ole Udsen

Post by **Roy Hersh** » Thu Jul 13, 2006 3:27 pm

Ole,

You make some excellent points. I think it is usually a coincidence when great Colheitas come from great vintages. Not many producers will utilize their own grapes for Colheita production if they are also releasing a Vintage Port. There are certainly exceptions and they are not rare, but they are in the vast majority of overall releases.

The 1959 Niepoort was a very enjoyable wine and I just had another of Dirk's Garrafeira's with him on this past trip, which is only the 3rd bottling of Garrafeira I have ever tried. It was the 1948 which some people go crazy over. When I expressed my less than overwhelming pleasure with it, Dirk agreed it is in an odd stage. More when I type up my notes from the trip. I really liked the 1863 Ferreira and had it (not by coincidence) the same weekend I had the 1863 Niepoort for the first time. I have had it again and for my palate, is preferred to the Ferreira version. Something about that 1863 vintage. I have had some great Ports from this year, as well as a few excellent Madeiras. The oldest bottle in my own cellar (of Port) is also from 1863, it is a single vineyard Port from Vezuvio, which was owned at the time by Dona Antonia Ferreira.

Anyway, one of these days I will stop being so lazy and hold one of the greatest ancient Colheita tastings and finally make some room in my cellar.

Tom Archer · Post by **Tom Archer** » Fri Jul 14, 2006 1:33 am

Is it the 1863 that Ferreira are offering for sale in their lodge at around 5000 euros a bottle?

- I suppose they're in no rush to sell out...

Tom

Ole Udsen · Post by **Ole Udsen** » Fri Jul 14, 2006 5:09 am

Dear Tom,

The 1863 I had was at a wealthy friend's place a few years back. I have no idea what it had originally cost, but I believe it was purchased at auction (Christies). My lucky friend was not in the habit of divulging prices of wines, lest this get in the way of enjoyment......

I have not had the luck of tasting the Niepoort from the same vintage, so cannot comment on the relative merits. Wish it were so....

Best regards
Ole

Post by **Roy Hersh** » Sat Jul 15, 2006 2:23 am

Tom,

There are currently 5 bottles of the 1863 left in Ferreira's cellar.

I will open mine, when a few other great bottles are in the room ... but the '27 Fonseca must be amongst them. I am still waiting for that day.

Post by **Roy Hersh** » Tue Oct 23, 2007 11:34 pm

Any new opinions on this topic? I have a feeling many more Colheitas have been tried in the past year or two.

Nikolaj Winther · Post by **Nikolaj Winther** » Wed Oct 31, 2007 3:42 am

Roy Hersh wrote:Any new opinions on this topic? I have a feeling many more Colheitas have been tried in the past year or two.

I'll throw in a cent.

Being a tawny man myself (not my complexion - that's more like Grappa) I heavily favor Tawny over Vintage (duh) and Colheitas over X-yo's.

I must say, that I find that the quality of the grapes are close to irrelevant when it comes to Colheitas. I've never been to the holy land (not Israel, know what I mean, wink wink, say no more, say no more) so I have no "early" information to base this postulate on, but I have some samples of medium aged colheitas in my collection. I'm talking about Burmesters Colheitas 1985-86-87.

85 was a good vintage-year, and so was 87 (to some degree), but 86 was not a vintage year. Nevertheless the three wines are very much alike in most aspects - colour flavor and palate. The same can be said about Calem's Colheita 1990-1991. One was a vintage-year the other was not, but both wines are very similar in quality (1990 perhaps slightly better - but that could be because it's slightly older).

However, something tells me that quality MUST matter. Otherwise, I see no reason to make inferiour tawny or even ruby. If I was a port producer, I'd make two wines - Vintage and Colheita. But I'm sure there's loads i have no idea about.

Derek T. · Post by **Derek T.** » Wed Oct 31, 2007 3:57 pm

Nikolaj Winther wrote: ...I see no reason to make inferiour tawny or even ruby. If I was a port producer, I'd make two wines - Vintage and Colheita.

Nikolaj,

Firstly, the "inferiour" ports are necessary to feed the market for those who do not appreciate the finer things in life and to generate regular market presence, revenue and profit for the producers. Secondly, if you ever become a port producer I would like to come and stay at your place

On a serious note, the 2 best Colhieta's I have tasted this year were Noval 1937 and Niepoort 1957. So, for me, the answer is no, Vintage years are not necessarily better.

Derek

Post by **Roy Hersh** » Wed Oct 31, 2007 10:31 pm

Good, now this is getting interesting again.

Nikolaj Winther · Post by **Nikolaj Winther** » Thu Nov 01, 2007 5:28 am

Derek T. wrote:
Nikolaj Winther wrote: ...I see no reason to make inferiour tawny or even ruby. If I was a port producer, I'd make two wines - Vintage and Colheita.
Nikolaj,

Firstly, the "inferiour" ports are necessary to feed the market for those who do not appreciate the finer things in life and to generate regular market presence, revenue and profit for the producers. Secondly, if you ever become a port producer I would like to come and stay at your place :lol:Derek

You misunderstand - I mean, that if you can put ANYTHING into a barrel and make it into the sweet sweet nectar we know as Colheita, then I see no reason to make anything else i.e. inferiour port.

Interestingly, when I read books on Port, the author always says someting along the lines that "vintage port is the easiest port to make. Just let it sit for two years and let the customer worry about cellaring". Then I read an older book on port (few of you know it - it was published by a danish supermarkes coop. in the 80's. Here Rolf Niepoort states that Colheita is easier to make compared to other tawnies, as all you have to do is wait - there's no blending etc.

That means, that the two, in my opinion, best types of port are also the easiest to make. They require little or no blending - only time.

Post by **Andy Velebil** » Thu Nov 01, 2007 11:00 am

Vintage Ports are relatively easy to make when compared to a Colheita...now that takes skill and patience. I've gotten the impression on my 2 trips to Portugal that winemakers consider making a great Colheita their crowning achievment. Colheita's are the last great unknown in the Port world...bad for everyone else, but good for me as prices on the older ones are still reasonable.

Derek T. · Post by **Derek T.** » Thu Nov 01, 2007 2:07 pm

Nikolaj,

I didn't misunderstand. What I was saying was that the port industry needs the inferior ports to survivie. The vast majority of port produced is cheap ruby and tawny which is consumed by the French as an easy way of getting drunk. That market provides the volume that the industry needs.

What we are interested in is the quality end of the market, which is why I want to stay at your house when you start to make only VP and Colhieta

Derek

Nikolaj Winther · Post by **Nikolaj Winther** » Thu Nov 01, 2007 2:23 pm

Derek T. wrote:Nikolaj,

I didn't misunderstand. What I was saying was that the port industry needs the inferior ports to survivie. The vast majority of port produced is cheap ruby and tawny which is consumed by the French as an easy way of getting drunk. That market provides the volume that the industry needs.

What we are interested in is the quality end of the market, which is why I want to stay at your house when you start to make only VP and Colhieta

Derek

Well, I don't think that Denmark is the ideal place for growing grapes for fortifiedes. And I don't have a garden/land for growing anything so... But maybe someday.