Learning the language

[John F. Newman]

Did anyone out there learn a foreign language later in life. I know bits and pieces of Portuguese (studied latin in High School and college, so we did not speak, but translated). However, I obviously am looking to have a decent base for conversation. I was looking at cds, and online tools, but haven't decided. So I was interested in what has worked for anyone on this forum (in any language, but would be helpful also if was European portuguese as there is a lot of courses offered for Brazilian, but not European). I downloaded Pimsleur's first course, and I see how a basic knowledge could be drilled into someone... but it is boring!

I have the support base, and I believe I can now make the time commitment. So I just need to find the proper tools.

Suggestions?

[Gary Banker]

Take a look at Rosetta Stone: http://www.rosettastone.com/

http://www.fluentin3months.com/rosetta-stone-review/

[John F. Newman]

Take a look at Rosetta Stone: http://www.rosettastone.com/

http://www.fluentin3months.com/rosetta-stone-review/

Rosetta has only Brazilian Portuguese.

[Eus Wust]

This one is interesting... and free! Worth a try. For iphone, ipad and end of this month also for android.

https://itunes.apple.com/nl/app/duoling ... ?l=en&mt=8

[Andy Velebil]

That app is pretty cool. I just tried it. Will let you know how it goes when I use it more.

[John F. Newman]

That app is pretty cool. I just tried it. Will let you know how it goes when I use it more.

My wife (Portuguese from Portugal) thinks it sounds like a robot with a Brazilian accent. It seems good for basic words, but I'm no expert on pronunciation.

To those who say, have your wife teach you... We could never keep up the use of Portuguese and always reverted back to English. Now my 2 girls are in portuguese school, and I'm suddenly further out of the loop than normal! It's about time I put the time and effort in to just learn it. I have the support for the homework at home, I just need the lessons "at school."

This app looks like decent reinforcement for vocabulary.

[Andy Velebil]

I'm sure it's not perfect, but seems like a decent way to get some basic language learning down. Well, at least I hope.

[John F. Newman]

I'm sure it's not perfect, but seems like a decent way to get some basic language learning down. Well, at least I hope.

I played with this app more today. It definitely is Brazilian. However, I think it may help me with those grammar errors I always make in my Portuguese baby-talk that I am currently using, like when to use "o" versus "um" or "a" vs. "uma." I'm sure as I progress, I'll learn more from this app - certainly not bad for free. (hopefully, the pronunciations won't be counter-productive.)

I downloaded the Pimsleur course's "free" introduction for $0.95 USD at iTunes. I think if I go for the full course, this is probably my best bet for learning (without taking an actual series of courses in a local college). I tried searching YouTube, iTunes and other places for good free or cheap stuff, but the only good things are either in Brazilian Portuguese or simply don't cover enough ground. It seems that European Portuguese always seems to get paid short shrift. The Pimsleur European Portuguese is taught in 10 units courses versus the Brazilian which has 3 "phases" of 30 units each - 90 total!

If I get the basics through the course, at least I'll have the benefit of talking with my wife and maybe the kids... There are other online courses out there for European Portuguese, like Michel Thomas, which is triple the cost of Pimsleur but also probably covers more ground.

I'll report when I take the plunge and let you know how I progress. If anyone has any other cool apps, or good suggestions, I'll gladly look into them.

[Glenn E.]

I have - and have used several times - the Pimsleur 10-CD course in European Portuguese. It seems to work pretty well for me, but of course even in 10 weeks you don't learn all that much if each week is barely an hour long. Still, it has allowed me to get by on a couple of occasions while in Portugal.

If anyone can find a more thorough European Portuguese course, I'd be interested. I have looked on several occasions and haven't been able to find anything other that Brazilian.

[Miguel Simoes]

I have given Pimsleur Korean a shot and felt that I was slowly learning.
Having someone to experiment with, someone that will help understand what Pimsleur is teaching you to say is key.
Fortunately both you and I have that in our wives!

[John F. Newman]

I'm more than half way through the Pimsleur ten unit EU Portuguese course, and I like it. I would definitely recommend it to others (if it was the 90 unit course, like they have for Brazilian, I would buy the whole thing - but 10 units free from the library isn't bad either).

While I haven't gone through the Wolder's World series, this is the most free EU PT on the internet from one source: http://www.woltersworld.com/language-le ... ortuguese/. He also has a YouTube channel, which includes travel to Portugal (and a lot of other places).

The only podcast in EU Portuguese is called one-minute Portuguese and is the basic of basics, but I have used it as a diversion from the Pimsleur. I think it probably reinforces some of what I am learning, esp. pronunciation.

There are a couple of YouTube channels and websites that I am combing through now. I will post after I take the time to sit down with them.

A lot of the apps are either bad, very limited, or in Brazilian PT.

[Roy Hersh]

What do you find is the main differences between European and Brazilian versions of Portuguese?

I have yet to find anyone who can succinctly explain what must be a somewhat significant difference between them, or maybe it's not.

[John F. Newman]

What do you find is the main differences between European and Brazilian versions of Portuguese?

I have yet to find anyone who can succinctly explain what must be a somewhat significant difference between them, or maybe it's not.

I'm below-novice level on the Portuguese ("PT") language(s), so there are only a few things I can actually speak toward. But I was thinking about this earlier, what if an Italian traveling to Scotland learned english based on a recording in a Texan dialect? How hard would it be for them to adapt their english to be understood.

My wife says she has a very hard understanding Brazilians. And from what I have heard, Brazilians have an even harder time understanding Portuguese (and neither can understand people from the Azores!)

So I'll start off saying there are cultural/national pride issues that separate them. Both countries are proud of their heritage and their language. Sometimes this shows up the wrong way in people, and one may look down on the other. So a difference may show in how you are received by others when you speak the "other" PT. I have no intention of traveling to Brazil in the next decade or two (no offense to Brazil). So I plan on making life easier when traveling to Portugal by attempting to speak EU PT ("EU PT" = European Portuguese; and "BR PT" = Brazilian Portuguese).

The development of the languages: BR Portuguese has been influenced by some African languages (through slaves), the indigenous Americans, and even incoming Europeans. On the other hand, Portugal has historically (and ironically) been isolated.

Here is some of what I understand are the differences, and I am sure some other users on this forum can speak to this better (and even correct my misunderstandings).

The variation on pronunciation of some words. Many people might know the phrase "bom dia" used as a greeting in portuguese meaning "good day." The word "dia" in PT - the "d" is a hard "d" while in BR the "d" is pronounced more like a soft letter "g." The letter "t" has the same sort of difference, in most cases in PT it is a hard "t," but BR it's a "chee" sound - in EU PT, milk is "leite" pronounced like the english word "late" but in BR PT it's pronounced more like the Spanish word for milk, "leche" (leh-chey).

Other differences: EU Portuguese tend to shorten their vowel sounds, while Brazilians lengthen them. EU Portuguese use the "sh" sound at the end of words ending with an "s", while BR PT doesn't ("por-too-geysh" vs. ("por-too-gays"). EU PT tends to cut off the ends of the word (see the word "leite," above). (It's funny listening to the tapes when the EU speakers slowly tell you how to pronounce a word, then when they speak them in a sentence there are missing syllables! )

Word order. A simple example is "I love you." In PT, amo-te. In BR, te-amo. The placement of pronouns is different. (Also, EU PT often omits the pronoun as it is understood from the verb)

Word choice: Example, in BR, "voce" is used frequently for the word "you," while PT would use the word "tu" for informal or "o senhor/a senhora" for more formal speech.

different words. like England and America, we have developed different words (but I think the two Portuguese languages have even a greater difference). In England you wouldn't wipe your face with a "napkin," but in America you would. In PT, the word for dog is "cao" (with an accent mark), but in BR it's "cachorro." In PT, "cachorro" is used when talking about a "hot dog" - "cachorro quente" - in PT, you wouldn't walk your "cachorro." (lol) Some words used in one country don't match or fit in the other - they may sound awkward, or in some cases they might be considered rude.

eliding words together, or contractions. Just as EU PT likes to cut off the ends of words, it is my understanding that while EU PT elides together many words, the Brazilians don't often do that. For example, "de um" would contract to "dum" in EU PT, but these words would not elide or contract in BR PT - they think that's dumb. (my joke)

These are just some of what I understand to be the differences between the two languages. I read a good quote by George Bernard Shaw, I'll paraphrase: "They are two countries separated by a common language." I'm over 40, and learning a new language is hard enough. I've noticed a lot of people on the internet saying "just learn Brazilian, it'll give you a good base and you'll learn later the differences and "correct" your accent/word choice/syntax/grammar/etc accordingly." How many tricks must an old dog learn in order to get the new one down?

The goal of learning a language is to be understood. I just think learning Brazilian would put up a roadblock for me in Portugal.

I just ordered the Michel Thomas 8 cd package to go to after I finish the Pimsleur. I'm on unit 6 of 10 units. I'm slow, and like to go over them repeatedly before moving on to the next unit (then when I've gone to the next unit, I also review prior units - today I'll be in the are for a couple of hours and may review the entire course again before moving on to unit 7).

ROY: I'm curious, how is your Portuguese?

[Miguel Simoes]

John, i think you nailed it for the most part.

My two cents, as my wife is from the US, and didnt know any Portuguese to begin with. She got the BR PT Rosetta Stone and worked through some of it.

Although it helps her understand a lot of what is being said, when she tries to speak, her brazilian accent, combined w the different way that the words order, combined w her lack of confidence in her ability to speak, make it such that people have a hard time understanding her, which further reinforces the lack of confidence feedback loop.

When people do understand her, they look puzzled... why would someone from the US, and only saying a few words, show up w a brazilian accent??

Anyway, BR PT is better than no PT, but if you really want to fully enjoy your experience in Portugal, I believe that putting in the effort to go EU PT would definitely pay off.

That said, all I need now is to get my otherwise v wonderful wife to go back to learning Portuguese, but this time EU PT! The Pimsleur CDs sound like they would be worth a try.

[John F. Newman]

Miguel, try the library first. That's how I got the Pimsleur course.

[Miguel Simoes]

Good idea :) thanks for the tip!

[Glenn E.]

("EU PT" = European Portuguese; and "BR PT" = Brazilian Portuguese).

Portuguese and Brazilian. As any Brit will be happy to tell you, we speak American, not English.

[John F. Newman]

I made my way through the Pimsleur 10 unit course. I thought it was good, but when I wrote up a word list, I found that the entire 10 units contained only about 100 words!

So now I am making my way through the Michel Thomas 8 cd beginner course. It is a very different animal. While Pimsleur tells you to review each unit, Michel Thomas wants their lessons to simply seep into you. Further, you are the third person in a tutorial session. The other two english speakers are learning, and you learn along with them and learn from their mistakes, but you also get to hear their lousy accents. The teacher is an English woman, and there is also a native portuguese speaker. I find that the the male english speaker sounds like the native Portuguese speaker, who only speaks up on occasion. So I find the native portuguese speaker mostly worthless.

Michel Thomas covers a lot more ground (at least in the 3 units I just sped through), but there is no instruction on reviewing what you just did and the CD specifically tells your that they do not want the student to study, memorize or fret over learning. It is the student's job to sit there and learn, and the teacher's job is to teach. (maybe I should play it when I am sleeping?) Another thing is that you are supposed to constantly hit the pause button so you can answer before the other students. It's hard to hit that pause button when driving a car or walking my St. Bernard.

Michel Thomas should definitely be used after Pimsleur as it is adding more ground and Pimsleur gives a good base. Michel Thomas might not be ideal, but there are not many other games in town, so I feel that I have little choice for at-home study. After this I will probably buy the 5 cd advanced course by Michel Thomas, as well as keeping an eye out for other teaching aids.

One person advised me that they learned from this course: http://pt.textoeditores.com/aprenderpor ... ugues.html. That person is from this site (http://www.practiceportuguese.com)




aww

[John F. Newman]

My update on "learning the language."

After going through the 8 CD Michel Thomas, I have a different opinion from when I last wrote on the subject. Put it this way, I bought the next and last set of Michel Thomas CDs.

First, my thoughts have changed about Pimsleur after going through the Michel Thomas course. As I previously noted, I was surprised that Pimsleur's 10 cds contained only about 100 words. It is a better course than the standard traveler's language courses as it goes over pronunciation very well, but at the end of the day, it is still only 100 words repeated in a myriad of different ways. It also does not teach you much about verbs, and there is little how or why to what you are learning. you are taught a few verbs conjugated in the present tense, with the verb-endings for "I," "you," and he/she/it. In retrospect, I felt good about what I was learning, but I think it is more of parroting than independent thinking. I would recommend this to learn a few phrases before traveling and learning how to pronounce those phrases so that you are understood well. But I can't recommend it as a way to learn the language. It is perhaps a good introductory course before hitting Michel Thomas, again because you learn how to pronounce a few words very well and because the next cd set - Michel Thomas' method - picks up steam pretty quickly.

While I found that there is some confusion as to pronunciation with Michel Thomas as you are listening to 2 students mis-pronounce things throughout the course, you do learn a lot from this course. (there are a few memory devices used by the teacher, and one was really bad in that the student remembered the word, but always mis-pronounced it due to the bad mnemonic). Essentially, there is a teacher (whose native tongue is English), two English speaking students and a native Portuguese speaker. You are listening in to their private tutorial.

What makes me like Michel Thomas is that Michel Thomas teaches how to conjugate verbs, and you are therefore given the tools to learn how to use other verbs you will learn outside of the course. You learn to take the infinitive form of a verb (the "to" form of the verb) and conjugate it to the present, the future, the past, conditional, and imperative in the different persons - I, you, he/she/it, we, you (pl) and they. You will learn about a couple irregular verbs and how to conjugate them. You will learn about sentence structure, and exceptions to various rules. I haven't done a word count, but Michel Thomas provides a more comprehensive vocabulary (well over the 100 words that Pimsleur provided).

The drawback is that the method does not introduce much in the way of reading material. I have bought a couple books which I am hoping can fill in the blanks for me and provide some exercises for me to practice.

Unfortunately, there is not much out there for European Portuguese. After I go through the full 13 CDs of the Michel Thomas, and add some other materials, I think I could pass a Portuguese 101 course without a problem. My local college is introducing a portuguese course this fall, which I think I will take. However, I inquired about it and was told that it "leans" towards Brazilian. I will probably still take it so I can proceed to the other levels of the course - but I am still not 100% sure, and this is this college's first time offering Portuguese.

My biggest problem has always been that I know a decent amount of words (mostly food related, body parts, house-related, colors, numbers, and curses), but it's only very rudimentary Portuguese - I basically can speak like a Portuguese caveman. My knowledge with verbs was almost non-existent. The Michel Thomas improved my ability to use verbs and feel more comfortable with them (how did anyone understand me before? - I am now learning how bad my use of verbs really was!)

Anyway, I think the goal will be to feel comfortable in Portugal next year (probably July).