Ex-cellars bottles of Vintage Port

[Eric Menchen]

Consistency is the key. The least amount of fluctuation is more important than anything ... all things being considered of course.

I was reading about the issue of skunky beer, and the phenomena referred to as "lightstruck." It turns out that this is something of a misnomer, because although you can easily create the condition with exposure to UV light, you can also cause the same reactions with temperature cycling and no light whatsoever. Now these reactions are beer specific (prenyl mercaptan is produced from 3-methyl-2-butene from hops and thiol from the malt), but it at least makes me wonder about temperature fluctuations in wine.

[Roy Hersh]

There have been many scientific studies revolving around wine, aging and temperature fluctuation. Unfortunately, I have never read conclusive evidence that could truly predict how wine would age based on differing temps. We all know that cold slows down the aging and that higher temperatures have a great effect on the evolution of wine's life cycle. But I don't know that we'll know the answer to the riddle anytime soon. The same goes for bottle size. We know that wine in Mag ages slower than that in a 750 or 375 ... but not specifically in a quantifiable proportion. Someday!

[Miguel Simoes]

Resurrecting this thread as I am trying to figure how to store a few bottles of VP that I should be taking delivery of in a couple of weeks!

V interesting what you guys indicate reg Magnums aging slower than regular bottles. Imho, that can only be down to the amount of cork exposure vs volume of liquid in the bottle. Do you also notice that in 750 vs 375? Ie., that the bigger the bottle, the slower the wine ages?

If that is the case, then temperature variability would be key as it would be driving expansion/contraction in the liquid, forcing the cork balance things out (either let more air in/out, or get soakier/drier to balance things out).

However, if what you are saying about magnums is correct, then it is mostly a matter of how fast the bottles will age, rather than if they'll spoil.

Would you agree?

(my specific issue I am trying to figure out is whether to put my bottles inside a wine fridge in the basement, or simply leave them in the basement. The temperature is 55-70 year round. For now, I am planning on putting them in the fridge set at 60. That way I'll prevent the high temperatures that may happen in the summer from spoiling it. As for the low temps in the Winter... oh well, not much i can do about it, it seems.)

[Moses Botbol]

I am a proponent of a natural cellaring if possible. Port is pretty robust the cellars in Porto are hardly chilly.

[Andy Velebil]

It's the sustained year after year in summer of 70 degrees I would worry about. My advice is unless your cellar stays relatively the same cool 55-60 degree temp year round (with some minor fluctuations) then you're best bet is putting them into a properly cooled wine storage fridge for long term storage. I would hate to find out 20+ years later the passive cellar did more harm than good.

[Eric Menchen]

Bottle size and aging could be affected by both the cork vs. the relative volume as well as the surface area vs. thermal mass. A bigger bottle will be less affected by external temperature variations.

[Miguel Simoes]

Very true Eric. Makes sense.

Do you guys note that same diff in aging between 375 and 750 bottles as well?

People have definitely mentioned it for Magnums but the physics of it would suggest that 375 bottles age faster even than 750 bottles...

However, no one seems to have noticed anything.

[Eric Menchen]

I have found 375s to be "old for their age" on a number of occasions. I do think they age more quickly in general. But since I don't know the provenance of the specific bottles I've tried, I can't say for sure that size was the issue.

[Rob C.]

I tend to agree - i have a feeling that halves age both slightly quicker and slightly differently to full size bottles. I'm sure i've seen many other threads on this board discussing this.

With older halves (i.e. 80s halves), I also seem to have experienced a higher incidence of slightly compromised / disappointing wines than with regular 750ml bottles, but that's just a gut feeling and i haven't been tracking it in detail (sample size is not too big, either). And it's not a phenomenon i've noticed with wine, either, so could just be bad luck.

In terms of the difference between 750ml and magnums, i actually haven't experienced/noticed it being as extreme as others obviously have. While i am not doubting that it makes a difference, other factors (storage conditions, cork integrity etc.) have far more of an impact (ex-cellars SW77 / GC77 magnums from the Douro, for instance, don't strike me as being particularly "young" compared to well-stored bottles i have had from the UK).

[Roy Hersh]

There is NO conclusive scientific evidence that provides proof positive about the aging curve of wine within different sizes of wine bottles. Empirical evidence certainly suggests that 375 ml bottles will age faster than like bottles from 750 or magnum; but again, we can all speculate but having been around this particular discussion on several wine forums in the past ... the jury remains locked in deliberations while the scientists try to find something concrete to substantiate this type of claim.

[Moses Botbol]

The percent aeration the cork allows into the bottle, as a percent of the total volume of the bottle is larger on a smaller bottle. That being said, corks aren’t uniform, they’re not always put in the bottle exactly the same. On large format bottles the corks or more apt to be hand-pressed; for better or worse. Not to mention that large format port bottles can have weird corks; if you’ve seen ’77 Taylor 3L’s; “where did they get a cork like that”. Some half bottles of wine have a different cork than the 750, so the theory on aeration would be off…

I am fine with leaving it at empirical evidence, and go with that…

[Eric Menchen]

Some half bottles of wine have a different cork than the 750, so the theory on aeration would be off…

Some might be different, some are not. As memory serves, the 375s I've seen have the same diameter corks as 750s. Cork length varies even in 750s, but I'd say the 375s are either the same or shorter than comparable 750s. If shorter, that would be worse.

[Moses Botbol]

Some half bottles of wine have a different cork than the 750, so the theory on aeration would be off…

Some might be different, some are not. As memory serves, the 375s I've seen have the same diameter corks as 750s. Cork length varies even in 750s, but I'd say the 375s are either the same or shorter than comparable 750s. If shorter, that would be worse.

This is meant to say having a meaningful test is quite hard and why I just stick with the old notions on bottle size and aging.

[Eric Menchen]

This is meant to say having a meaningful test is quite hard and why I just stick with the old notions on bottle size and aging.

Some oenologist wannabe should do this for a masters thesis. Get a bunch of wine, put it in 375s, 750s, magnums. Maybe use some different size corks and even some synthetics. Ideally you would age them for 10, 20, 30+ years. But for research you could put them in a cellar for which you could control temperature, humidity, and even atmospheric pressure and cycle those to accelerate the aging. I think it would be an interesting experiment.

[Tom Archer]

Some oenologist wannabe should do this for a masters thesis. Get a bunch of wine, put it in 375s, 750s, magnums. Maybe use some different size corks and even some synthetics. Ideally you would age them for 10, 20, 30+ years. But for research you could put them in a cellar for which you could control temperature, humidity, and even atmospheric pressure and cycle those to accelerate the aging. I think it would be an interesting experiment.

The only reason this doesn't happen is that you can't get meaningful results in the timescale of a degree course!

Someone in the trade (I forget who..) suggested to me earlier this year that the variation of maturation speed of different formats has nothing to do with cork exposure, but the exposure of the wine to sediment. There is a tiny bit of logic behind that idea, but I really don't know if it's true or not..

[Bradley Bogdan]

I've always suspected (but have no empirical proof for) that the damaging effects of temperature fluctuation on wine (provided the temp stays below ~68 or so) comes more from the constant changing of pressure on the cork, thus making it more likely the cork will fail sooner than it otherwise might. It might encourage increased oxygen contact even with a good cork, as the changes in pressure force more bits of air in or out, depending on the temperature swing.

On a separate note, do people in general see a shorter/lower quality cork on their 375s? I'll admit I've only had about half a dozen of the small format bottles, but mostly I wasn't impressed at all with the corks, length or quality. If this is general trend, I think that might have more to do with the premature aging rather than anything else.

Finally, more on point to the subject, it depends. If it is a younger (under 20 year old) port, I'd say about 20% is about right. If it is older, it really depends on the condition of the bottle, whether I really expect to ever have access to ex-cellar stock of said wine (or have it again), and what comparably aged bottles look like at auction. If a private cellar has 30-40+ old bottles that are mostly in good shape, I'd almost trust those more than an ex-cellar bottle that I have never seen. Fakes don't seem to be nearly the issue in port as they are in other wines, so if a bottle of 1966 Suchandsuch VP has a base neck fill and no seepage marks, I'm much more inclined to suspect that the wax cap and proper storage are the cause and not a refill.

That all said, I tend to be more budget constrained than many with a wine habit, so auctions tend to be how I acquire older bottles almost exclusively. The funny thing is, I think I've had a lower percentage of flawed wines via auction than I have at retail/wineries.

[Tom Archer]

I've always suspected (but have no empirical proof for) that the damaging effects of temperature fluctuation on wine (provided the temp stays below ~68 or so) comes more from the constant changing of pressure on the cork, thus making it more likely the cork will fail sooner than it otherwise might.

Corks weaken over time, and if the bottle is subjected to thermal shocks, (such as may occur during transport) some evidence of seepage may appear. Very often however, the cork will resume a good seal once the bottle is returned to a temperature stable environment.

So at the risk of seeming pedantic, I don't think temperature changes cause cork failure, but they may reveal a cork that is weakening through age.

[Moses Botbol]

I'm much more inclined to suspect that the wax cap and proper storage are the cause and not a refill.

Waxed cap or tin foil makes a difference. It really does secure the cork. Ramos does the foil really well and the wax is the only reason many vintages of Ferreira are still holding in there. Both techniques have benefited their Vintage longevity.

[Tom Archer]

I could write an essay on that subject....

- I am also currently conducting a properly recorded study to establish the effectiveness of re-waxing as an alternative to re-corking. First indications suggest that a properly applied re-wax or over-wax buys a lot of time, and drastically reduces ullage rates. I will report my findings in due course.

[Bradley Bogdan]

I could write an essay on that subject....

- I am also currently conducting a properly recorded study to establish the effectiveness of re-waxing as an alternative to re-corking. First indications suggest that a properly applied re-wax or over-wax buys a lot of time, and drastically reduces ullage rates. I will report my findings in due course.

I'd be very curious to hear the results, I've actually never thought about re-waxing as something one could even do, but that would make a lot of sense.