Ex-cellars bottles of Vintage Port

[Roy Hersh]

Here in the USA, buying at auction, especially older Vintage Ports can be a bit of a crap shoot ... certainly in comparison to UK auctions. Others certainly might not agree with this assessment though.

However, my motto when buying older bottles (in this context, read: pre-1977) is that PROVENANCE is everything!

That said, pre-1975 bottling may have taken place in a multitude of places and the wines therefore ... may have been moved around and even resold on numerous occasions. It happens!

Since that may be the case (again I am specifically talking about here in the USA, as I do realize that in the UK things are a bit "safer" at auction) ...

Do you put a premium on Oporto bottlings that come directly by way of the producer's warehouse or cellar? Are you willing to pay more knowing a bottle(s) or case(s) are ex-cellars?

IF so, how much extra is this worth to you?
In other words, Retailer A - has a case of wine that comes to $USD100 per bottle. REtailer B - is selling the identical vintage/producer ... but the cost per bottle is $X ... because it came from XYZ Shipper in Oporto, through an importer who can also retail the bottles. Yes I realize that is not supposed to happen, but we all know it does.

[Andy Velebil]

I'm not sure I could put a flat dollar amount on it. But, I would not mind paying a bit more for older bottles whose provenance is assured. the price increase would have to be taken on a bottle by bottle basis, given the year producer, etc.

Yes, I do prefer to buy bottles that are Oporto bottled.

I agree that buying older bottles here (US) is tricky, even at retail stores. I've seen plenty of older bottles for sale near me that were in terrible shape and yet they were still priced at market value or higher. That is one reason I still don't have many early (pre-1977) bottles. And one reason the bottles are still on the shelf at the retailers.

As far as buying at auction here, I have bought some things at auction and, so far, not had any problems. But I really scrutinize the pictures of the bottles before I buy. Any signs of damage and I won't bid on them. I know this may not mean they aren't damaged, but it has helped to reduce possible problems.

[Derek T.]

I know this is intended for the US market but I have a real example to share so I thought I would do so.

I recently purchased 18 bottles Fonseca 1985 (ex-cellars) at £750 + tax. The lowest alternative price I could find at the time (excluding auctions because I have never used one) was £630 + tax. So, the value I put on the ex-cellars provenance in this instance was just under 20% above the lowest available price. Am I insane? :?

Derek

[Roy Hersh]

That is one reason I still don't have many early (pre-1977) bottles.

Stick with us Andy, I am sure we can find a way to help you spend lots of your money on older bottles. Your very recent foray into the 1970 Taylor's for example, was a great investment in your future drinking pleasure.


Derek,

You make some good points. I do not think you overpaid for those bottles and I commend you on stocking up on the '85 Fonsecas, which I tirelessly tout to anybody who will listen. OTOH, unlike the vast majority on this FORUM, I love them now too! I don't think they "need" more time and I disagree that they are tannic beasts. Not my experience in having this wine early and often ... especially in the last 3 years I have had this wine MANY times. But taste is in the eye of the beholder and whether one chooses to drink 'em now or wait until they are amazing well-aged beauties ... I can't fault any view of the drinking window.

I wish more people had expressed their views on topic about the value of ex-cellar bottlings though. Maybe they still will.

[Jay Powers]

I would probably pay 5-10% over for this "insurance". Of course that might vary depending on vintage and price.

The potential problem would be that you can not neccesarily know that the wine was actually ex cellers, especially when purchasing in the US, unless you can get it shipped directly from the shipper, which is not allowed for those of us not in the trade. So I guess that from some dealers I would pay, and others I would not, depending on reputation and my previous experience with them.

As an aside, Roy and Derek, whats your suggested decanting time on the Fonseca 1985?

[Derek T.]

My advice would be to decanf the Fonseca 85 for around 8 hours at some point during 2016

Derek

[Al B.]

There was a recent reference to this old thread, which made me search it out to read what had been written in the past.

Interestingly, I had an experience recently in Portugal which might have changed my mind on this question. In the past, I have always assumed that bottles acquired ex-cellars will be of perfect provenance and will the the closest you can get to experiencing the wine inside in the way in which it should be experienced - the standard by which it should be judged, if you like.

However, when in Vila Nova de Gaia recently, I was lucky enough to walk around a couple of the cellars of the lodges there. The temperature in the cellar was such that I was extremely comfortable in shorts and a t-shirt - in my opinion, that is far too warm for the proper cellaring of vintage port. That rang the first alarm bell in my mind.

I have also shared bottles of port with producers where the bottles have been shipped to the UK or bottled in the UK and then cellared undisturbed in the dark, damp and cold depths of an English country house for many years before being brought out into the light and consumed. On at least two occasions - with a 1963 and a 1970 port - the producer in question commented that the bottles were showing much better than the ones coming from their own cellars in Portugal.

The result of this is that I am no longer convinced that an ex-cellars bottle from the shipper is worth a significant amount more than any other source. Instead, I would prefer to investigate when the bottles were originally shipped and where they had been stored since. Sometimes I'm happy to pay a premium if I am convinced that the bottles are likely to be the result of perfect storage and sometimes I'm happy to roll the dice and pay a small amount of money for bottles that have been kept standing upright in the kitchen cupboard.

Am I wrong in my view? Am I undervaluing the provenance of an ex-cellars bottle?

[Roy Hersh]

Consistency is the key. The least amount of fluctuation is more important than anything ... all things being considered of course. So bottles stored at a range of 55-65 degrees are going to be in better condition 30 years later than bottles stored at 52-68 degrees over the same time frame. Some cellars are cooler than others and the RH also comes into play as well. I am much more impressed when I see underground cellars in Gaia, vs. those that are on ground level. I'll leave it to others to name names, but I think this is a key dynamic, in all honesty.

[David Spriggs]

I'll agree with Jay, I'd say 5-10%. For older bottles (1977 or older) I might go as high as 20%.
-Dave-

[Glenn E.]

The result of this is that I am no longer convinced that an ex-cellars bottle from the shipper is worth a significant amount more than any other source.

I think it depends on the producer, really. Noval's lodge up in the Douro is allegedly temperature controlled - I've seen it but never been in it to check - so I imagine that bottles stored there would have exceptional provenance. But like you, I've been through some in Gaia that sure didn't seem to be cool enough to me.

However, as Roy stated, I have heard that it is consistency of temperature that is (second) most important. (Avoiding temperature extremes is the most important.) Storing your Port at 70F (21C) will age it more quickly, but from what I've read it won't actually ruin it.

[Michael M.]

So bottles stored at a range of 55-65 degrees are going to be in better condition 30 years later than bottles stored at 52-68 degrees over the same time frame.

Roy, you know I do have very much respect for your competence in the matter of Port. But I will doubt, that anyone would be able to perceive a significant difference determinated only by the factor temperature in this undramatic range.

According to my knowledge there is no substantiated scientific examination about this topic. O.k. there is proven physical cognition about liquids. But is human really able to taste that? I will doubt. Is it even possible to diversify the factor temperature while keeping the other variables constant? I will doubt again. So imo information about the factor temperature must be left an unproven assumption.

According to my humble experience temperature is an overrated factor. I never had an ideal celler. It was allways in a range of 15-21°C (59-69,8°F) over the year. I do have e.g. another Bordeaux Crus Bourgeois of the years 1993 and 1994 in my cellar. The corks look near to perfect and the wine is still delicious. So I do not worry at all about my wines respectively Ports. My fear, when buying Port is that the wine was too often "on the road" in any car and cooked by extreme temperatures. Or, similar bad: a window bottle.

Best regards
Michael

[Eric Menchen]

Here's an often cited "scientific" examination of how cellar temperature affects aging:
http://www.wineperspective.com/STORAGE% ... 0AGING.htm
I put "scientific" in quotes because while the article sounds scientific and the author has a PhD, it doesn't go into the science behind what makes the difference, but instead mentions, "well founded and accepted chemical principles that will not be discussed here." And it doesn't really discuss the issue Roy brings up, which is variability.

[Glenn E.]

but instead mentions, "well founded and accepted chemical principles that will not be discussed here."

That sounds suspiciously like "the proof is trivial," which if I'm remembering my history correctly was noted in the margin of one of Fermat's theorems which then required a couple hundred years to prove.

[Marc J.]

I'm thinking that I'd probably pay 15-20% more for some ex-cellars bottles of Port. Although I must say that I've had experiences in the past with ex-cellars bottles that were in pretty rough shape. Just because the bottles are coming directly from a Gaia lodge really isn't a guarantee of their being in pristine condition. Nevertheless, I do believe that purchasing ex-cellars bottles of Port increases the odds of obtaining a properly stored bottle and consequently I'd be willing to pay a bit more for them.

Marc

[Moses Botbol]

I hope to go to UK soon and try bottles of excellent storage. To me, the storage is as fascinating as the port by itself. To think the bottle has stayed in the same location since it was new is incredible.

[Al B.]

And I hope you'll let us know when you plan to be this side of the pond so that we can lock up our cellars...

...or perhaps you're planning to make the "Unknown Shipper" Christmas Offline on December 17th where we open all the old bottles that have lost their labels and find out what they are.

Last Christmas we ended up drinking Calem 1933 colheita, Croft 1904, Croft 1960, Dow 1955, Ferreira 1945, Fonseca Guimaraens 1972, Martinez 1967, Noval 1966, Quinta da Roeda 1987, Smith Woodhouse 1947, Taylor 1955, Unknown Shipper from 1908, Warre 1900 and Warre 1963.

Tempted?

[Roy Hersh]

Michael M. wrote:

Roy, you know I do have very much respect for your competence in the matter of Port. But I will doubt, that anyone would be able to perceive a significant difference determinated only by the factor temperature in this undramatic range.

Michael,

I have zero issue with you or anyone disagreeing with me, on this or any topic.

It is probably a moot point, that neither of us will really be able to prove. Taken less literally, the point being that the tighter the range of temperature fluctuation ... the better it is for the cellaring of a specific bottle or case of Port ... or any wine for that matter.

[Michael M.]

Michael,

I have zero issue with you or anyone disagreeing with me, on this or any topic.

Roy,

It is all about our great passion called Port. And I feel very happy to learn and to change experiences with other passionate Port lovers. Please let me jump at the chance to say "thank you Roy and thank you FTLOP for making this possible on this board!"

Michael

[Andy Velebil]

Michael,
Allow me to say thank you, to you and to all the others here at , for all you do. Without all of you we wouldn't be where we are today.

[Derek T.]

I have experienced the same phenomenon that Alex describes above on more than one occassion to make me think that this is a real issue.

An interesting thought springs to mind. The major shippers tend to store their SQVPs in VNG for 10 years or so before releasing onto the market for immediate drinking. I wonder if these wines would be as evolved if they were released to colder, more temperature stable cellars immediately after bottling and then released at the same time as those stored in VNG?

Derek