Poll: Bottle size preference

[Roy Hersh]

Obviously the natural instinct would be to choose a magnum, 3-liter or only a 750 ml ... IF ... those were the choices.


But they are NOT.

This question applies across all the categories of Port wine.

Please feel free to add your comments, besides voting. Thank you!

[Daniel Jewesbury]

I'm keen to hear what experiences people have of drinking 37.5s of younger (<30 yrs) VPs, as against 75s of the same wine. How have these opened up in comparison to the standard bottles? Has anyone done these experiments? Roy? I bought some of my 11s in halves because I'd like to be able to taste them when they're more advanced, rather than gambling that I'll still be around when the 75s are all mature...

[Andy Velebil]

The more I've had 500ml bottles, the more I dislike them. They are either not enough or too much. And my biggest issue is with pricing of 500ml bottles. There tends to be a significant mark up for 500ml bottles.

Using the 20 Year Otima as an example. Average pricing is around $40-44 per 500ml. Taylor, Fonseca, Sandeman, and some other 20 year tawnys are about the same price for a 750ml bottle. Anyone else see a problem here?

[Roy Hersh]

Yes, the pricing of the OTIMA 20 year old is clearly the problem.

[Andy Velebil]

Yes, the pricing of the OTIMA 20 year old is clearly the problem.

Yes it is. LOL

But seriously, that highlights the issue with most 500ml bottles. The uptick in price per ml over a 750, or even a 375, is quite large. Why would someone pay more to get less? If the producers wanted to sell it at a comparable price given the quantity in bottle I would have far less of an issue buying them.

The other issue is aging curve. There is more than enough emperical evidence that the larger the format of bottle the slower a wine ages. Vintage Port has two good sizes right now, 375 and 750. Why would anyone want a 500ml for VP? I certainly don't. Now for other types of Port, say basic and reserve ruby's/tawny's, maybe. But again, the price has to be comparable per ml with other sizes.

Now lets talk storage. Almost all wine racks/storage is built for three main sizes, 375ml, 750ml, and 1.5l. So now everyone will have to buy new racks, or somehow adapt what they've got. As valuable space is wasted if you're storing a whole lot of 500ml bottles in 750ml slots. I don't see 500ml catching on with the main stream wine collectors.

I think 500ml has far better place for the basic/reserve Ports in the restaurant trade. Where a 375 is probably going to be too small, and a 750 won't sell fast enough, a 500ml bottle may be just right.

[Glenn E.]

I agree with Andy.

One further point is that, at least for me, 500 ml bottles are just the wrong size. My wife and I can drink a 375 ml bottle together. A 750 ml bottle will serve me for a week, or a gathering of friends. A 500 ml bottle isn't really the right amount of Port for any occasion. I suppose it might serve us and another couple in a pinch, but that would require that the other couple not really be big Port drinkers, which sort of defeats the point of opening a bottle of Port.

[Roy Hersh]

Glenn,

You mention, "but that would require that the other couple not really be big Port drinkers" and just prior to that: "A 750 ml bottle will serve me for a week".

Er, do you consider yourself a "big Port drinker"?

Andy knocks off 750's over the course of lunch, so he is in a very different league!

[Paul Fountain]

I'm not blessed with a huge range of 20 year old tawnies to choose from, but interestingly the Warres Otima is probably the cheapest available locally for me. I can buy them for about $AU63.
Most 750ml bottles of 20 year old tawny will set me back upwards of $AU100, which is why I don't drink it as often as I like. I did find an exception though - the 750ml Quinta do Vallado 20yr old was listed at one place at $AU98 while the 500ml version at another was listed at $AU104.
I'm used to the 500ml bottles though, as most of the local fortifieds have been coming in them for more than a decade now.

[Andy Velebil]

Paul,
Just did a currency conversion. That's some seriously expensive 20 Year Tawny's! I feel for you, just like the Canadian folk as well. of course, the UK folk feel for all of us with their cheap pricing

[Glenn E.]

You mention, "but that would require that the other couple not really be big Port drinkers" and just prior to that: "A 750 ml bottle will serve me for a week".

Er, do you consider yourself a "big Port drinker"?

Andy knocks off 750's over the course of lunch, so he is in a very different league!

Well, you know, it's all relative!

Compared to most of my friends, I'm a big Port drinker. Compared to people here... well, not so much.

[Phil W]

The other issue is aging curve. There is more than enough emperical evidence that the larger the format of bottle the slower a wine ages. Vintage Port has two good sizes right now, 375 and 750. Why would anyone want a 500ml for VP?

I don't, especially; however the question asked "If you could only choose 1 size for future Port bottles to be produced, which would it be?", so 750ml is not available in this context. I have not drunk enough old halves to be convinced of their overall quality, plus they are too small for sharing (yes I could open more, but would be likely paying more for 2x37.5cl than 1x50cl), so I would go for the 500ml if this were the only other option.

[Roy Hersh]

Phil,

Thank you for removing the 750 ml bottle from this discussion altogether. That was the crux of the poll of course.

[Eric Menchen]

Now lets talk storage. Almost all wine racks/storage is built for three main sizes, 375ml, 750ml, and 1.5l. So now everyone will have to buy new racks, or somehow adapt what they've got. As valuable space is wasted if you're storing a whole lot of 500ml bottles in 750ml slots. I don't see 500ml catching on with the main stream wine collectors.

I've found that even magnum and split racking isn't all that common. Some lines of racking include these sizes, but a fair amount (like mine), do not. And when they do include these, they aren't necessarily that efficient. I was looking at this rack and this one. They barely hold more bottles than a 750 rack of the same size. I think I may end up fabricating my own racks. I measured a bunch of different small bottles and figured out that for my racking, 3 1/8" spacing would be ideal, and fit a lot more bottles than the racks out there.

As for 500ml bottles, I've found there are two variations. There are very tall and skinny bottles, more common with some U.S. stickies, that will fit in 375ml racks, and then there are squat bottles, like those used for Tokaji, that fit in regular racks. Yes, you are wasting some space with those.

There are plenty of different sized 375ml bottles as well. Photos attached.

[Andy Velebil]

Is that a new device in which to drink port? Looks complicated and very technical. Not sure the trade will embrace it within our life time.

[Eric Menchen]

Don't you like to know how your bottles measure up, Andy? I thought David wanted numbers in the tasting notes.

[Roy Hersh]

Gotta love the attention to detail. There's a reason why the term "geek" has grown in popularity when it comes to many of us Port nerds.

[Andy Velebil]

Don't you like to know how your bottles measure up, Andy? I thought David wanted numbers in the tasting notes.

I'm old school. I just hold up a thumb and guess.

[Roy Hersh]

I have some 375 racks enough to hold 84 bottle of this size and 500 ml too. I also have racks (filled tho) with 78 mags and then some that hold 3L and other size large format bottles. They hold these bottle sizes well and I have no issues with 375 or 500 ml bottles of Port, Tokaji or other misc. items fitting in them. I guess it depends on the racking.

I like 500 ml as well as 750 and 1500 ml bottles of Port, much more than I do 375. Typically when I open 375, they always leaving me wanting more and then I have to open another bottle. I don't mind 375's and they do have a purpose, but I don't find that most 500 ml bottles offer less bang for the buck. Sure there are specific examples of that being the case, but then one can choose not to purchase those types of Ports if the QPR is out of whack.

[Roy Hersh]

Received this from one of the top tier brands of Port, regarding their 2011 VP:

" ... made the decision not to bottle any VP in 375ml, that decision based on observations on how the wine aged in 375ml and feeling that the wines weren’t showing their best when aged in that format."

[Roy Hersh]

The vote came out 2:1 in favor of the 375 ml, so at least with the voters here, there seems to be no reason for any change.