Most economical mature VP

[Tim Swaback]

Hey guys. I'm sure some of you have read my random postings over the last few weeks and I have another question for you experts. I've tried a few LBV's and Tawnys over the last week or two and have been buying a few random bottles here and there. I'm now wondering what would be a good economical choice to test out a decent mature VP? This doesn't need to be the cream of the crop, just something worth the money to experience what a VP is. Thanks for any help.

Tim

PS. Just built a second wine rack. Its the bigger one on the right in this picture. Total cost $8
http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y117/s ... s006-2.jpg

[Glenn E.]

Tim,

You can sometimes find very good deals on Vintage Port online, especially at auction houses. Naturally, the best deals sell quickly, so it is difficult to recommend anything because they're likely to disappear before you can get to them. I have found 1970 Royal Oporto for $30 and 1985 Churchill for $26.50 in the past, but both deals were gone within a day or two.

The problem is that mature Vintage Ports are just more expensive. Someone has had to hang onto them for 20, 30, or 40 years while they mature, so you have to pay for the time investment. There are a few brands that can sometimes be found in the $40 range, but they might give you the wrong impression.

If you're willing to spend a little more, though, to get a good VP at its normal price, then we can probably make some good recommendations. You should be able to find a few different vintages of Vesuvio in the $50 range, though none of them can be called fully mature. Smith Woodhouse and Gould Campbell both produced excellent VPs in 1985 that you should be able to find for around $60, but again they're not really fully mature. If you're hunt around enough, though, you might be able to find some 1970s VPs from second-tier producers in that same $60 price range. I have a 1970 Martinez that I found over a year ago for that price.

Sorry I can't be much more help... maybe someone else will have a more specific suggestion for you!

[Moses Botbol]

Sandeman is a brand to look for early maturing port. 1980 is an excellent vintage that won't break the bank.

It would be easier to look for something and report back for an honest opinion. There are many vintage ports out there and I am sure there is not one that someone where here hasn't tried.

[Ronald Wortel]

If you want to get a taste of what mature vintage port tastes like, without breaking the bank, try a port from a producer that makes decent ports, but usually a bit early mature, and not that highly regarded. I had a Kopke 1985 and Ramos Pinto 1983 recently that would both fit nicely into that category. You could also try a single quinta vintage port from the 1980's that would give you some sort of idea. Graham's Malvedos, Taylor's Vargellas and Warre's Cavadinha can all be nice. Not single quinta but also bottled in off years (and usually great value) is Fonseca Guimaraens.

And if you find something, and need advice, please don't hesitate to post.

Happy hunting!

[Lamont Huxley]

There are definitely some affordable 85's that would fit the bill. I've enjoyed Croft 85 on several occasions and although it's not the most refined, it's delicious and has lots of secondary characteristics. That bottle is still available relatively cheap. The Sandeman, Churchill, Royal Oporto, and Quinta do Noval are some other 85's that come to mind that are on the cheaper side but still give you a nice experience of mature VP.

[Eric Menchen]

PS. Just built a second wine rack. Its the bigger one on the right in this picture. Total cost $8
http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y117/s ... s006-2.jpg

Nice design. I like that better than building all the dividers, although you'll find some Port bottles are bigger than others (Kopke and Royal come to mind) and may have to cut some bigger semicircles for those in future racks. Is that homemade stuff in rack now?

[Moses Botbol]

PS. Just built a second wine rack. Its the bigger one on the right in this picture. Total cost $8
http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y117/s ... s006-2.jpg

Nice design. I like that better than building all the dividers, although you'll find some Port bottles are bigger than others (Kopke and Royal come to mind) and may have to cut some bigger semicircles for those in future racks. Is that homemade stuff in rack now?

Good for you! Wine racks are expensive. I thought about using PVC pipe cut in 6" sections and glue them together into a big grid. I think the per bottle cost would really and just use wider diameter PVC for magnums.

What do you think?

[Peter W. Meek]

I'd be wary of PVC or any other plastic for anything permanent. They can deteriorate, and unlike wood and fasteners, the first warning you get is total catastrophic failure.

A nailed, screwed, or bolted wood structure will first get punky in a few places if it rots, which gives you some warning; it will get loose and shifty if the fasteners get loose.

Glues for gluing plastic are also prone to coming loose from the plastic, unless they are "welding" type glues that melt and merge the plastic rather than stick it together. A high-quality wood glue is fairly trustworthy.

Looking at the pictures of the wood racks, I note that almost all the fasteners are wood screws into end-grain. You could add a LOT of strength with vertical 2x4s and fasteners going through them into the existing verticals and horizontals cross-grain. They would be placed as sort of face-frame members at either side of the rack.

I confess that it would spoil the clean lines of the existing racks, but short of redesigning/rebuilding them to avoid screws going into end-grain, I don't see another way. Probably they are strong enough, and it is just my mistrust of any end-grain fastening solution speaking.

[Moses Botbol]

I'd be wary of PVC or any other plastic for anything permanent. They can deteriorate, and unlike wood and fasteners, the first warning you get is total catastrophic failure.

A nailed, screwed, or bolted wood structure will first get punky in a few places if it rots, which gives you some warning; it will get loose and shifty if the fasteners get loose.

Glues for gluing plastic are also prone to coming loose from the plastic, unless they are "welding" type glues that melt and merge the plastic rather than stick it together. A high-quality wood glue is fairly trustworthy.

Good insight there. What about 12" x 12" plywood crosses like tic-tac-toe grid and turning it 45 degrees so each bin is a "V"?

[Glenn E.]

What about 12" x 12" plywood crosses like tic-tac-toe grid and turning it 45 degrees so each bin is a "V"?

I made something like that during wood shop class in high school, and my Dad still uses it in his wine cellar to this day. So it works well and is apparently plenty sturdy!

[Tim Swaback]

Yes the wine in the new rack is home made. The top 2 shelves are a Shiraz. It turned out drinkable but that's about it. Probably won't do it again. The 3rd shelf down is a fortified blueberry pomegranate that I made in 2007 when I first discovered port. I was 22 and stupid so it weighs in at 28% alcohol. The odd thing is that you barely notice the alcohol.

I did think about adding a bit of support for the new wine rack but it is very sturdy and unless I notice something changing I'll probably just leave it. The next design will definitely have a bit more support to it.

I also thought about some bottles not fitting. I figured on the next go around I'll build a couple of shelves that will be able to hold magnums.

On another note I found a 1989 Cruz VP for the suspicious price of $35. I decided not to buy it and from the reviews I think I am glad I didn't. I would rather spend the money on another pair of Noval Blacks (although I still haven't tried that one yet, maybe tonight?)

[Peter W. Meek]

...
Good insight there. What about 12" x 12" plywood crosses like tic-tac-toe grid and turning it 45 degrees so each bin is a "V"?

Undoubtedly would add strength, but like I said, these racks have very nice clean lines. I'd hate to muck them up with either my suggested 2x4s or with raw-edged plywood.

Tim is doing nicely as a new port collector. I'd say, "Tim? When you need to make another rack (and you will) how about doing the design as a free-for-all here at FTLOP?"

[Dylan Howard]

A question from a guy who will probably be building his own racks soon. Any concern with untreated wood and humidity?

dylan

[Peter W. Meek]

There is a SERIOUS concern with treated lumber if there is any chance a child might ever be near it. The stuff they use to treat lumber is poisonous. You should never use it around foodstuffs; never use it to make animal enclosures; wear eye, breathing and skin protection when working with treated lumber; you should scrupulously clean up scraps and sawdust after construction; wash hands before eating or smoking after handling treated lumber. If you burn the scraps don't breathe any of the smoke and dispose of the ashes as you would any other hazardous material. It is a cumulative poison, so it might not make you feel bad immediately, but the more you are exposed, the more risk.

Finally, treated lumber is a LOT weaker than kiln-dried. It needs to be half-again larger for the same strength.

My personal opinion? Only use treated lumber when the final product is unavoidably in constant contact with wet ground (like a fence post). For everything else, design the project so that it sheds water, is isolated from wet ground or concrete, can dry out easily. (A little plastic pad on the bottoms of legs will isolate wood from a concrete floor.) There are 1000 year old constructions made of wood that still exist because they were designed properly. Make weather joints so there are no horizontal seams; angle all seams or make them saddle-shaped so water will drain out of them. Minimize upwardly-exposed end-grain, or at least cut it at a good angle. Choose your wood wisely: white oak, red cedar, cyprus, redwood among others. Many tropical hardwoods are very water resistant, but they also contain oils that can irritate or even cause dangerous allergies. Design projects so that a damaged or rotting piece can be replaced rather than needing to destroy the project to repair it. Instead of nails, use lagbolts; instead of lagbolts, use galvanized (or even high-quality stainless) through-bolts, washers and nuts. Stainless screws (316 or 18-8 quality) should be good for light construction like wine racks; predrill for countersink, body and threads in most woods. White oak pegs will outlast any metal fastener but need mortice and tenon construction, which is labor-intensive.

Humidity? In a humidity-controlled wine cellar, use a wood like redwood, white oak or the like, and avoid highly resinous woods like aromatic cedar and some pines (the oils evaporate and can contaminate the wines right through the corks; do you want all your wine to taste like Retsina?). You won't want your cellar to be much above 65% RH or you may begin to have mold problems long before the wood will be affected.

[Dylan Howard]

Thanks for the detailed response, Pete. I misspoke a bit. I didn't actually mean to imply you should use treated lumber. I guess I was thinking about staining or priming/painting for some moisture protection. Great warning though.

Finally, I thought lots of people like to keep their cellars at 70% RH? There are not academic questions for me as I'll be building a cellar as soon as my wife and I sell our house.

It was a bit of a threadjack though. sorry.

dylan

[Al B.]

On another note I found a 1989 Cruz VP for the suspicious price of $35. I decided not to buy it and from the reviews I think I am glad I didn't. I would rather spend the money on another pair of Noval Blacks (although I still haven't tried that one yet, maybe tonight?)

In the UK, one of our supermarkets was selling the Cruz 1989 for around $15-20 a bottle. At that price, it's worth trying. I served it blind once to our tasting group alongside some bigger names and it went down quite well - certainly better than it's reputation deserved. Cruz aim to make cheap port that is an entry level for the particular type of port and to sell large volumes. I would say that the Cruz 1989 does exacly that - it's an entry level vintage port that is simple, straightforward and has not of the depth or complexity that you will find in a Fonseca 1966 that will cost you $150.

Don't necessarily dismiss the Cruz '89. At $35 a bottle it might just be worth a try.

[Moses Botbol]

There are many 1980 vintage ports that are drinking well right now and priced below '83 & '85. The consumer does not see 1980 as big vintage or one to look for. Dow, Taylor, Graham, Ferriera, and Sandeman are solid vintages that year that no one would turn their noses down to being served today.

[Raul Valle]

In my opinion, the 75's are definetely some of the most economical mature VP that you can find in the market!
I think it has to do with the fact that it was a little bit under-rated!

Cheers,

Raul

[Raul Valle]

Oh, and I forgot to give you a tip, the Cavadinha 89 is drinking amazingly well and it costs in Portugal aroung 25 €!

Cheers,

Raul

[Moses Botbol]

Oh, and I forgot to give you a tip, the Cavadinha 89 is drinking amazingly well and it costs in Portugal aroung 25 €!

It sure is! Had on Saturday afternoon and was impressed with the richness and lack of heat compared to the '85 I had on Friday night. Excellent recomendation.